Thread: Manyshot and 10K Stars

We need to finally and directly address the 10K and Manyshot design. We need to make a final decision on what we are going to do here before we finish our other designs, even if that decision is "do nothing."

We've discussed a lot of options internally and we are open to discussion, but here are some take aways:

~ We don't want the best ranged option to be forced to have 6 levels of monk.

~ We don't like this situation where the feats block Doubleshot.

~ We don't want to be in a position where we have to design around this problem forever. We would be willing to accept it if players really think this is best for the game though.

~ If we are going to nerf the Monk multiclass using both 10K Stars and Manyshot, we'd rather do it with a clean design rather than getting tricky about what we are going to do with it.


Right now the option we are discussing that has the cleanest design is:

~ Manyshot and 10K Stars share a cool down. What I mean is when Manyshot goes on cooldown 10K Stars also goes on the full cooldown and vice versa.

~ Manyshot and 10K Stars no longer have a doubleshot penalty.

~ Mechanic, Deepwood Stalker, and Arcane Archer see a rework (as you have seen) this upcoming patch along with the addition of Ranged Power to epic levels and cores.

~ Since this change wouldn't affect Artificer and they will only get stronger with Ranged Power we aren't worried about waiting to update them at a later date.

~ I think the only design issue there might be whether Slayer Arrow is too strong with Many-Shot but that's something we are living with on live.

Thoughts?

Sev~

Manyshot and 10K Stars need to be mutually exclusive.

Originally Posted by Severlin

We need to finally and directly address the 10K and Manyshot design. We need to make a final decision on what we are going to do here before we finish our other designs, even if that decision is "do nothing."

We've discussed a lot of options internally and we are open to discussion, but here are some take aways:

~ We don't want the best ranged option to be forced to have 6 levels of monk.

~ We don't like this situation where the feats block Doubleshot.

~ We don't want to be in a position where we have to design around this problem forever. We would be willing to accept it if players really think this is best for the game though.

~ If we are going to nerf the Monk multiclass using both 10K Stars and Manyshot, we'd rather do it with a clean design rather than getting tricky about what we are going to do with it.


Right now the option we are discussing that has the cleanest design is:

~ Manyshot and 10K Stars share a cool down. What I mean is when Manyshot goes on cooldown 10K Stars also goes on the full cooldown and vice versa.

from what i see this would get a bad retort from the community. It would also make many builds obsolete. If it went live i would probably change my archers build mostly because when manyshot or 10k stars are off timer my dps drops to being almost negligible. I am currently running a 12 monk 6 ranger 2 paladin bladeforged. That being said i would not support this change but i do understand why some do.

~ Manyshot and 10K Stars no longer have a doubleshot penalty.

I would support this change but i think manshot and 10k stars would get an insane boost if doubleshot applied to them. This might roll over better if the doubleshot penalty was reduced to the manyshot/10k stars duration.

~ Mechanic, Deepwood Stalker, and Arcane Archer see a rework (as you have seen) this upcoming patch along with the addition of Ranged Power to epic levels and cores.

~ Since this change wouldn't affect Artificer and they will only get stronger with Ranged Power we aren't worried about waiting to update them at a later date.

~ I think the only design issue there might be whether Slayer Arrow is too strong with Many-Shot but that's something we are living with on live.

Slayer arrow is certainly powerful in tandem with manyshot and 10k stars but it is no more powerful then a blitzing barbarian.

Originally Posted by Severlin

~ If we are going to nerf the Monk multiclass using both 10K Stars and Manyshot, we'd rather do it with a clean design rather than getting tricky about what we are going to do with it.


Right now the option we are discussing that has the cleanest design is:

~ Manyshot and 10K Stars share a cool down. What I mean is when Manyshot goes on cooldown 10K Stars also goes on the full cooldown and vice versa.

~ Manyshot and 10K Stars no longer have a doubleshot penalty.

Just do it. As it currently is & has been, it's just simply a brokenly OP synergy. Yes, there'll be much wailing and gnashing of teeth (plus some good ol' fashioned whining), but a nerf along these lines isn't exactly unexpected by the player base at large. Even many archers I know in game who rarely or even never bother with the forums have been waiting for this hammer to drop. Yes, breaking builds sucks, but the only other way I see to balance having just Manyshot vs having 10k and Manyshot is with a "no more debuff" modification to the Stalker's lvl 18 core - if that's not an option, just break the Monkchers and move forward.

How much doubleshot do you guys have on your rangers? Running some dps tests to see the differences.

Hard to see any real negatives to these proposals, though peeps with both should probably be tossed a bone.

Originally Posted by Severlin

We need to finally and directly address the 10K and Manyshot design. We need to make a final decision on what we are going to do here before we finish our other designs, even if that decision is "do nothing."

We've discussed a lot of options internally and we are open to discussion, but here are some take aways:


Thoughts?

Sev~

You keep ignoring suggestions that don't seem to fit what you want, so do whatever you want. Who gives a toss if people who've been playing monkchers since 2011 get shafted.

The best ranged option now includes 14 paladin levels and no manyshot anyway. Once your done with this, the best Bow build will also have 14 paladin levels.

Originally Posted by Munkenmo

1. I'm still thinking the best solution is to change manyshot / 10k stars to apply a 20/30 second debuff that sets Ranged Power to 0, and removing the doubleshot debuff. This'll allow you room to apply ranged power to all other builds without worrying about the 2 burst abilities. It'll also provide an interesting choice for fury vs. LD. Fury for great burst damage, or LD for great consistent damage with no ranged power bursts.

Just do it already.

It has felt weird that this has been on the chopping block for so long, it's not even OP anymore but is now receiving attention. I understand you are addressing it now so you can safely buff archery as a whole, but man this has felt like a very unreasonable time to allow it. Please, don't repeat this with broken Druid wolf builds that are currently much worse than MS/10K builds ever were and fix them ASAP please.

As a player who refuses to bow to the elite cry "You must start to add monk", I like it. It seems right now my pure ranger is far less then a monk/ranger. Logically as a pnp player, that makes no sense. Will it break a build, sounds like it will, but it also seems many people find that one catch and push it until it has to be reworked. (not directed at any one). I would like my pure class ranger to feel useful.

I am pretty sure you all know in most things you do, it will please some players, upset others and then some will just go with the flow.

There are now several different feats that have a shared cool down time. I think that is just fair.

I hate that people try to constantly push me to add 6 levels of monk to be a better archer. (Again no logic to it to me)

Slayer arrows have to be bought, found, or made, all of which takes time, and any one of us could be without them, not sure how much of an issue that is, but I will be checking it out.

Originally Posted by Severlin

...Snip...

Thoughts?

Sev~

Sev, until you make 10K Stars a feat that only applies to thrown weapons exclusively, and preferably only Shurikens, then no other change should be done until you go back to the core Word/Terms that matter here. 10k Stars should have never applied to bow related gameplay and damage. You need to remove the bow capability of this Feat or nothing else matters here. You've seen this comment at least a hundred times on the normal forum, how many more times does it need to be said before you finally undo a long-standing error in the game?

If you give the full cooldown to both skills whenever either skill is used, you have essentially told the playerbase to choose only one, whichever works better for you, and drop the other. That's perfectly fine with me, though I don't see why it should necessarily be BAD to splash monk, it just shouldn't be NECESSARY to do so. My proposed solution makes it so you can choose one or the other, and both have their advantages, or both, to mix and match your advantages.

In PNP, so I've been told, Manyshot is a set amount of extra arrows at all times. Here's my proposition:

1) 10k Stars stays the same. Burst damage, but with a doubleshot debuff during and a certain amount of time after using the ability.
2) Manyshot becomes a set amount of doubleshot at all times, scaling with BAB. My proposition would be around 4% doubleshot per point of BAB (just for bows).

This gives a player both options. If they want burst damage, they can put in 10k Stars. If they want constant extra damage, but not as much as a burst, they use manyshot instead. If they want constant extra damage normally, but want to kick it up to 11 at the boss, they can take both and have the best of both worlds, though after the burst, they lose the doubleshot for a while while it's on cooldown.

I personally would love this.

This is exactly the reason that Shuriken builds are intriguing. They might not look like great DPS, but the fact that with 50 Dex, you can throw 2+ Stars every single throw is sweet.

I can see Monks being rockin' archers. I mean, that's what Zen archery is all about, and I think it makes sense. I just don't like when you HAVE to have monk levels to be competitive.

The doubleshot debuff was a terrible attempt at a bandaid on the real issue because it neutered regular non monk archers as well. It needs to go so people can pick a style and not have to worry about building for a stat which doesn't work if they use their burst DPS which they also built for,.

Each style should have had one burst ability
bows = many shot
crossbows = endless fusillade
shuriken = 10k stars

If you want two bursts you will need to build for both and have both types of weapons on hand. Doing so will likely be at the cost of building for melee, which is on the rise again due to the revamps happening.

Paladins being the best archers is as silly as monks being the best archers.

I stand by my recommendations made in the balance thread which look a lot like what is in the OP here so obv I'm in favor of this proposal but there are a couple of points I feel like reiterating or adding:

-There should be no chance for doubleshot while Manyshot or 10kS are actually active.
-I think there should be something to mildly discourage heavy armor wearing archers. In particular, I don't want to see the Rgr6/Pal14 becoming the clear choice as "new" best archer. I proposed a double shot cap, modeled after dodge cap.

Here is my original post on the subject.

Originally Posted by CaptainSpacePony

Giving it a little thought how about something like:
-Manyshot (MS) and 10k stars share a cooldown activation (like eternal flasks) so using 1 locks out the other.
-Remove the post activation double shot (2xS) penalty from MS and 10kS.
-Introduce armor caps on 2xS, similar to dodge caps, at least for med/hvy armors.
-Grant the "Speedy Shooter" feat to rangers at lvl 1.

Speedy Shooter. Grants 1% 2xS per ranger or (inclusive) Shiradi level. (If this is too much, then a lesser bonus, such as 1%/2 lvls. This is an adjustable knob)

This would
-"fix" the MS/2xS "exploit"
-Offset said "fix" by greatly increasing ranged DPS through 2xS, especially for rangers
-Enable heavily armored melee ftrs to use MS as burst DPS while discouraging them as dedicated DPS archers
-Encourage ranger and shiradi as choices for archers
-Make 10kS relevant for dedicated star-chuckers

(I cleaned up a couple of typos when pasting the quote here)

I have 2 suggestions

1. Increase the cooldown of 10k stars to 2 minutes, have both manyshot and 10k have different cooldowns, reduce the doubleshot penalty to (for manyshot) 20 seconds, (for 10k) 30 seconds


2. Upon activation of manyshot or 10k stars you gain 100 stacks of doubleshot penalty. Every other second decreases this penalty by 2d3. After 100 seconds (on all 1s) - 34 seconds (on all 3s) you have 0 doubleshot penalty. Activating manyshot or 10k while the penalty adds an additional 100 stacks of penalty.





A final suggestion that I don't like: remove bows from 10k stars so it only works on shuriken

Originally Posted by Severlin

We need to finally and directly address the 10K and Manyshot design. We need to make a final decision on what we are going to do here before we finish our other designs, even if that decision is "do nothing."

We've discussed a lot of options internally and we are open to discussion, but here are some take aways:

~ We don't want the best ranged option to be forced to have 6 levels of monk.

~ We don't like this situation where the feats block Doubleshot.

~ We don't want to be in a position where we have to design around this problem forever. We would be willing to accept it if players really think this is best for the game though.

~ If we are going to nerf the Monk multiclass using both 10K Stars and Manyshot, we'd rather do it with a clean design rather than getting tricky about what we are going to do with it.

To address all those points, just remove the doubleshot penalty from manyshot then...

Originally Posted by Severlin

~ We don't want the best ranged option to be forced to have 6 levels of monk.

New best ranged build is 14pally/6ranger. May not be what you wanted, but that's more of a design problem of holy sword.

Originally Posted by Severlin

~ If we are going to nerf the Monk multiclass using both 10K Stars and Manyshot, we'd rather do it with a clean design rather than getting tricky about what we are going to do with it.

I don't understand why you'd nerf a popular build in favor of less popular builds, especially just in order to get those in line with each other.
We already showed monkchers don't need a nerf anymore compared in total power to the upgraded melee classes (barb, bard, pally).