After the thrashing he got for his first 101 guide, I think he's made a much better effort to actually try to learn what the fuck he is talking about. Plus taking input from the community is a great step.

stainer wrote on Jun 9^th, 2011 at 2:19pm:



I'm very impressed with the guy.  He took withering criticism for the first guide, but rather than shrinking from it he embraced it, learned from it, and came back for more.  He's definitely earned my respect, and I think the guides are actually a helpful resource for new players.

Cor wrote on Jun 9^th, 2011 at 3:50pm:


Shields. He will go off about 1 daxe+shield>TWF.

Asheras wrote on Jun 9^th, 2011 at 2:40pm:


I suspect that's the whole point of these guides... give enough advices on how to build a character that won't sucks badly.
And let the players discover the rest.

Asheras wrote on Jun 9^th, 2011 at 2:40pm:


And what about the RS Cleric that runs ahead with the Wiz/Sorc just because (s)he wants a piece of the kill count ? 
( and anyway, that's where averybody will end up bunched together so that's the best place to be when casting the eventual ardored mass cure light  )

Belwaar wrote on Jun 10^th, 2011 at 12:11pm:


Game experience sure pays off. My first few runs through Wiz King I had to be hand held. Now I can solo it at level on a melee. Same for Coal Chamber.

I know the game has changed a lot over the last few years, but I think sometimes people take the learning curve for granted. Going from "OMG that kobold messed me up" to "Hah, I didn't cause a death penalty this run" and on to "Yeah its 4 barbarians running Rainbow in the Dark and we don't need a healer" is a long process.

stainer wrote on Jun 10^th, 2011 at 12:28pm:



True.  Very True.

Asheras wrote on Jun 10^th, 2011 at 2:01pm:


He is going to link the compendium entry to the thread that all the discussion took place in. Hopefully a motivated person will read through it and pick up some of those hints. To be truthful though, a brand spanking new player is better taking 16 dex and spending a level point or hoping for a +1 tome. I played for awhile before I got my first +2 tome.

I'm actually dreading the Cleric 101 guide, but I'll give him a chance....

stainer wrote on Jun 10^th, 2011 at 3:07pm:


Oh, I'm actually not as "elitist" as some people seem to think I am when it comes to Clerics.  There is no "one way" and if there was a "one way", it certainly isn't "Pallai's Way".

I do love my Clerics, and I consider myself to be fairly knowledgeable about the class, but there are thousands of paths to the same end.... sometimes they meet in the middle, sometimes they don't.

After reading your response, I did think about what I think should be on a Cleric 101 guide versus what might actually be on there.  I think what it comes down to is that there's always your "first toon".  This game and it's rulesets are so complex that there's no way you can plan for or fully grasp all the nuances that go into character building until you've actually gotten your hands dirty and rolled that first toon.

I guess that I might need to start categorizing what viewpoint people are coming from when I respond on the forums... are they looking for the basic info... the bare bones deal?  Or are they trying to dig a layer deeper and are questioning the not-so-obvious aspect of building?

I can say this- I play with Ron's Planner a lot.  It's like a crossword puzzle to me and I truly enjoy tweaking this stat here or that gear there.  Even though I access the program several times a week, I'm still on the newb side of the spectrum when it comes to character planning.  I do like the process of learning it, though.

Started this as a reply to Pallai's comment, not sure if I just ended up saying much the same thing using different words.

Apart from those rare people who have played a lot of MMOs, can digest the forums and figure out how the (limited) documentation and complex rulesets affect the game, everyone else will learn the old-fashioned way - by doing, and by making mistakes.

I think that setting realistic expectations in these guides is as important as providing a good build. Give people a build that they won't regret at endgame (at least I was never tempted by Eschew Ingredients), and that is not terribly gear or skill dependant. Most importantly, it should be flexible enough to support multiple playstyles by swapping gear and enhancements, so that people can see for themselves that DDO is not about "know your roles", or entirely limited to playing just one of healer-mage-tank-DPS. Tell them what you are doing, and let them go out and start making the normal mistakes that everyone else does.

I abandoned my first few characters. It worked well for me to try out a lot of different classes and playstyles up to level 4-6, and get a feel for what class I enjoyed and what type of playstyle suited me. I then took a decent (sub-par, but not terrible) build to level up to 20 which fit that playstyle, and have adapted it since with enhancements. After capping a cleric and monk, and playing a bard, a wizard and a clonk to levels 16-18, I now have a better idea of what I want to do with my cleric (offensive casting, evasion, decent reflex saves, some UMD, and as much melee as I can afford with the leftover points).

For clerics, I'd be torn between recommending a warpriest or an offensive caster to a newbie. The warpriest makes low levels almost idiot-proof, is very solo friendly, and can still healbot / pike to 20 to unlock 32 point builds, or TR. I think offensive casting is more important than melee later on though.

The problem in this game is that levels 1-6 are so terribly different from levels 15-20, and new players don't see how their uber toon that rips up the market is going to badly suck by Gianthold, to say nothing of Amrath. The difference in BAB, strength, feats, and enhancements don't matter in lower levels - even a wizard can hit stuff reliably in Korthos with a quarterstaff. DCs and spell pen are hugely important at high levels, unless you're a fan of seeing blue hexagons with your implosion or blade barrier, but you might not appreciate that fact on a level 3 cleric.

Sword and board rocks from Korthos to the market, but not much further. I think I once tried to convince some noob on /advice that Die Hard was a useless feat once traps start doing 200 points of damage and trash  hit for 50, but their harbor experience said otherwise. I gave up.

For me, I sadly didn't really see the benefits of things forum regulars talk about until it was too late for some characters. It wasn't until I took my bard into Shroud that it really sunk in that UMD=fire shield, and that I wanted it for as many characters as could afford it, rather than viewing UMD as an expensive luxury. It wasn't until I felt the speed of a capped monk or permahasted wizard and bard that I started putting striders on every character.

I do believe that the difficulty and expense of respeccing is a big turn-off for people. I can get to level 6 a lot faster now than on my first character, but for a new player, the idea of having to restart might represent a few weeks worth of their gaming time. Apart from the single free feat exchange (which they are just as likely to screw up), builds in DDO are too easy to wreck and too costly to fix.

Well, maybe there's enough garbage posts that Gimpy will be missed. I'm more ashamed that my post is two below him, so close to such terrible embarrasing stupidity that I think my own post became many times more idiotic just by proximity. It was originally a beautiful post explaining how any single person could learn how to heal superbly, even becoming capable of healing stupid. Now, it's just some junk about being able to melee a little, even with the caster focus, and some stuff about spells being good. Regrettably the stupid is so much that I cannot remember how I typed such previous perfection.

Glenalth wrote on Jun 28^th, 2011 at 8:08pm:

I'm pretty sure they are aware. More fun is the bitch fight between Sirgog and A_D  . In this particular instance, I'd have to go with Sirgog. He's absolutely correct regarding low'ish "battle clerics". They suck, and they suck hard. His one in ten chance of getting a good one is very generous in my experience, as I've yet seen a single one that wasn't a waste of a party slot. That doesn't mean that there are not good ones out there, but from what I've seen and experienced, it goes something like this:
1. Cast Bulls on self
2. Cast Bears on self
3. Swing weapon for crap damage
4. If lucky, will heal themselves, but NEVER count on it
5. Never cast a heal on anyone else...ever.