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Very Hot Topic (More than 75 Replies) Monk DPS: stance? (Read 18948 times)
Feynman
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #50 - Apr 12th, 2012 at 4:05am
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Earth is usually better unless you're trying to dump aggro; +1 crit multi > 10% doublestrike, especially if you're missing on low rolls to begin with.

I only switch to wind when I'm trying to not pull aggro.

Fire is for extra ki before you get oremi's/alchemist's/frozen tunic.

Water is for monkchers.


I have more monks than you Smiley
  

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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #51 - Apr 12th, 2012 at 4:41am
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popejubal wrote on Apr 11th, 2012 at 7:59pm:
Time to ask for group consensus - If you are in a raid, should you stay in Earth stance and just expect the tank to be good enough to keep aggro anyway or should you go to not-Earth stance even though you'll end up with less DPS in order to make sure that you don't grab aggro?

Feel free to assume that you are in the raids that you usually end up in - that means some people are going to assume shitty tanks and some people are going to assume awesome tanks.


Earth stance is so immensely OP for tanking, leave it.  Even if your dps sucks in comparison to the tank, you will take it.  It is only a matter of when.  Well, unless you are an 8 str build with 16 dex.  Then it's up for grabs.
« Last Edit: Apr 12th, 2012 at 4:41am by Epoch »  

OnePercenter wrote on May 15th, 2014 at 9:41am:
I just read that the cat followed up by visiting the dog house later that night, dropping some Willie Pete in on the sleeping dog.  #epochsfamiliarFTW

Sim-Sala-Bim wrote on Jan 27th, 2014 at 2:09am:
It seems like Epoch never loses his popularity.
Even against donuts.
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #52 - Apr 12th, 2012 at 4:43am
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Merrick wrote on Apr 11th, 2012 at 8:31pm:
Would you go the same way on a warforged monk or is the +25% insight bonus for healing amplification on Epic Jidz Tet'ka worth staying in fire stance for while tanking?


Yes I would do the same on a wf monk.  Fuck the 25% insight healing amp, you are the fucking center of attention for the clerics.  If a WF barb can live without it, you can.
  

OnePercenter wrote on May 15th, 2014 at 9:41am:
I just read that the cat followed up by visiting the dog house later that night, dropping some Willie Pete in on the sleeping dog.  #epochsfamiliarFTW

Sim-Sala-Bim wrote on Jan 27th, 2014 at 2:09am:
It seems like Epoch never loses his popularity.
Even against donuts.
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #53 - Apr 12th, 2012 at 2:41pm
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Epoch wrote on Apr 12th, 2012 at 4:43am:
Yes I would do the same on a wf monk.  Fuck the 25% insight healing amp, you are the fucking center of attention for the clerics.  If a WF barb can live without it, you can.


My WF barb dies a lot. I will have 200+ hp more than anyone else and I still will die first. I'm sitting at 97% healing amp or something.
  

Alekx wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 11:46pm:
Fuck you and your political correctness. Eat a big fat conservative homo cock while you gaze at pony pictures with a hose up your ass.
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #54 - Apr 12th, 2012 at 4:12pm
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JC wrote on Apr 12th, 2012 at 2:41pm:
My WF barb dies a lot. I will have 200+ hp more than anyone else and I still will die first. I'm sitting at 97% healing amp or something.

Must be those damned pony-hatin' racists!   Undecided
  
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Merrick
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #55 - Apr 12th, 2012 at 4:39pm
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JC wrote on Apr 12th, 2012 at 2:41pm:
My WF barb dies a lot. I will have 200+ hp more than anyone else and I still will die first. I'm sitting at 97% healing amp or something.


Yeah, normally I wouldn't have given it a second thought but I was in two separate groups with two different FvS healbots the other day and BOTH of them were bitching about how many SP it was taking to heal me (funny that clerics never have before...) even though I had monk imp. recovery 2 and healer's friend 2 through enhancements.

So that's what....0.5 base * 1.2 for HF 2 * 1.2 for IR 2 = 0.72. Not spectacular but it moves up to 0.9 with the extra 25% from fire stance with Jidz Tet'ka.

Should I be considering blowing 12AP *shudders* on HF3 and IR3 or just telling the bitchy healbots to buy lesser hearts and splash in some wizard? Tongue
  
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #56 - Apr 12th, 2012 at 7:30pm
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Feynman wrote on Apr 12th, 2012 at 4:05am:
Earth is usually better unless you're trying to dump aggro; +1 crit multi > 10% doublestrike, especially if you're missing on low rolls to begin with.


If you are missing on low rolls, say on a 2 and a 3, then fire will add 11,7% DPS. This is more then 10% wind doublestrike and more than +1 crit multi from earth.

Infant
  
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Merrick
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #57 - Apr 12th, 2012 at 7:36pm
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Infant wrote on Apr 12th, 2012 at 7:30pm:
If you are missing on low rolls, say on a 2 and a 3, then fire will add 11,7% DPS. This is more then 10% wind doublestrike and more than +1 crit multi from earth.


At earlier levels, and then once again when you get it epic upgraded, the Jidz Tet'ka bracer advances your handwraps a full die step in earth stance, albeit in a way that doesn't stack with Garments of Equilibrium.
  
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #58 - Apr 12th, 2012 at 7:44pm
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Infant wrote on Apr 12th, 2012 at 7:30pm:
If you are missing on low rolls, say on a 2 and a 3, then fire will add 11,7% DPS. This is more then 10% wind doublestrike and more than +1 crit multi from earth.

Infant


Unless you're twitching, the attack rolls should be iterative. +2 to-hit isn't going to increase your hits from 17/20 to 19/20, it'll increase them from 74/80 to 76/80 (since if you are missing on a 3 on the first roll, you'll be missing only on a 1 for the next 3). That's only a ~2.7% dps boost.

Unless I'm doing the math wrong, which is entirely possible.

Edit: And no, I don't know why you would be twitching on a monk. I've never played one, so I wouldn't.
« Last Edit: Apr 12th, 2012 at 7:45pm by »  
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #59 - Apr 12th, 2012 at 7:56pm
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Quote:
Unless you're twitching, the attack rolls should be iterative. +2 to-hit isn't going to increase your hits from 17/20 to 19/20, it'll increase them from 74/80 to 76/80 (since if you are missing on a 3 on the first roll, you'll be missing only on a 1 for the next 3). That's only a ~2.7% dps boost.

Unless I'm doing the math wrong, which is entirely possible.

Edit: And no, I don't know why you would be twitching on a monk. I've never played one, so I wouldn't.


I see. To get the higher to-hit from later attacks, do you have to get the first hit attack to stick?
  
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #60 - Apr 12th, 2012 at 8:03pm
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Infant wrote on Apr 12th, 2012 at 7:56pm:
I see. To get the higher to-hit from later attacks, do you have to get the first hit attack to stick?


I don't think so. I think the to-hit bonus is attached to the animation.

Getting high to-hit on twitching THFers is important, since they don't get any bonuses past the first +16 (assuming full BAB). For everyone else, you don't start seeing a big improvement to dps from to-hit bonuses unless you are missing on 7 or higher (when the attack bonus will improve your odds of hitting on more than one animation, instead of just the first one).

That doesn't mean that getting to the point where hitting on a 2 on the first iteration is bad, just that it isn't quite as big a deal as you might think.
  
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #61 - Apr 12th, 2012 at 8:15pm
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Infant wrote on Apr 12th, 2012 at 7:56pm:
I see. To get the higher to-hit from later attacks, do you have to get the first hit attack to stick?


Assuming the DDO Wiki is up to date, No - it is automatic as long as you are not moving along the x or yaxes.

Quote:
    There is a -4 attack roll penalty while moving. It does not apply to rotating in place but it does apply to jumping straight up and down. The Spring Attack feat negates this penalty. This penalty is the other big reason new players have difficulty hitting things in DDO.

    Besides avoiding the -4 movement penalty, there is another benefit to standing still when you attack. If you continuously attack from one spot with no motion except rotation and jumps, you cycle through a sequence of two to four different attack animations depending on your Base Attack Bonus. What good is that? Well, if your cycle is three swings long, you get +5 to attack rolls every third swing, and if it's four swings long, you get +5 on the third swing and +10 on the fourth. While you're moving, your cycle never goes above two swings.

    Cycles are two swings long if your BAB is 0. You pick up a third at BAB +1 and a fourth at BAB +3. For pure-class characters, this means:

        Classes that are great at fighting (see the list above) get three swings at levels 1 & 2 and four swings at level 3+.
        Classes that are good at fighting get two swings at level 1, three swings at levels 2-3, and four swings at level 4+.
        Classes that are poor at fighting get two swings at level 1, three swings at levels 2-5, and four swings at level 6+.


« Last Edit: Apr 12th, 2012 at 8:16pm by Merrick »  
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #62 - Apr 12th, 2012 at 8:16pm
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Merrick wrote on Apr 12th, 2012 at 8:15pm:
Assuming the DDO Wiki is up to date, No - it is automatic as long as you are not moving along the x or y axes.




Blargh. Wrong fucking button all to correct a typo.
« Last Edit: Apr 12th, 2012 at 8:17pm by Merrick »  
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #63 - Apr 12th, 2012 at 8:34pm
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Merrick wrote on Apr 12th, 2012 at 8:15pm:
Assuming the DDO Wiki is up to date, No - it is automatic as long as you are not moving along the x or yaxes.




So my math WAS wrong! I'd forgotten that the second iteration had the same +to-hit as the first one.

For a non-twitch, full BAB character that misses on a 3 on the first attack rool, a +2 to-hit bonus will increase the h/s (hits per swing) ratio from 72/80 to 76/80, or a ~5.6% dps increase. Still lower than you might think, but a bigger improvement nonetheless.
  
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #64 - Apr 13th, 2012 at 5:22am
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JC wrote on Apr 12th, 2012 at 2:41pm:
My WF barb dies a lot. I will have 200+ hp more than anyone else and I still will die first. I'm sitting at 97% healing amp or something.


Get better healers.  Better yet, get a good sorc.  My wf sorc has been used as the tank "healer" many a time.  ToD and lob not Elob - but on elite, so i do not know how well that would go.
  

OnePercenter wrote on May 15th, 2014 at 9:41am:
I just read that the cat followed up by visiting the dog house later that night, dropping some Willie Pete in on the sleeping dog.  #epochsfamiliarFTW

Sim-Sala-Bim wrote on Jan 27th, 2014 at 2:09am:
It seems like Epoch never loses his popularity.
Even against donuts.
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #65 - Apr 13th, 2012 at 11:29am
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Epoch wrote on Apr 13th, 2012 at 5:22am:
Get better healers.  Better yet, get a good sorc.  My wf sorc has been used as the tank "healer" many a time.  ToD and lob not Elob - but on elite, so i do not know how well that would go.


Well I pug exclusively because I'm not in any channels and my guild has 3 players with capped characters. Myself, a guy who is perpetually silent and a guy who is not silent but is unable to play all that often.

AND MOST OF THE PUG ARCANES CANT REPAIR FOR SHIT THEY ARE ALL DROW PALEMASTERS AND DROW SORCS
« Last Edit: Apr 13th, 2012 at 12:16pm by JC »  

Alekx wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 11:46pm:
Fuck you and your political correctness. Eat a big fat conservative homo cock while you gaze at pony pictures with a hose up your ass.
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #66 - Apr 13th, 2012 at 11:59am
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JC wrote on Apr 13th, 2012 at 11:29am:
my guild has 3 players with caped characters


City of Heroes, Champions, or DC?
  

                                                                      
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #67 - Apr 13th, 2012 at 12:16pm
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Maxwell Edison wrote on Apr 13th, 2012 at 11:59am:
City of Heroes, Champions, or DC?


Derp
  

Alekx wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 11:46pm:
Fuck you and your political correctness. Eat a big fat conservative homo cock while you gaze at pony pictures with a hose up your ass.
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #68 - Apr 13th, 2012 at 6:28pm
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JC wrote on Apr 13th, 2012 at 11:29am:
Well I pug exclusively because I'm not in any channels and my guild has 3 players with capped characters. Myself, a guy who is perpetually silent and a guy who is not silent but is unable to play all that often.

AND MOST OF THE PUG ARCANES CANT REPAIR FOR SHIT THEY ARE ALL DROW PALEMASTERS AND DROW SORCS


In that case, don't roll wf melee.
  

OnePercenter wrote on May 15th, 2014 at 9:41am:
I just read that the cat followed up by visiting the dog house later that night, dropping some Willie Pete in on the sleeping dog.  #epochsfamiliarFTW

Sim-Sala-Bim wrote on Jan 27th, 2014 at 2:09am:
It seems like Epoch never loses his popularity.
Even against donuts.
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #69 - Apr 13th, 2012 at 8:36pm
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Epoch wrote on Apr 13th, 2012 at 6:28pm:
In that case, don't roll wf melee.


I am going to TR him soon into something more self sufficient. And by self sufficient I mean anything other than barbarian. I will never play a barbarian again.
  

Alekx wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 11:46pm:
Fuck you and your political correctness. Eat a big fat conservative homo cock while you gaze at pony pictures with a hose up your ass.
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #70 - Apr 14th, 2012 at 11:54am
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Are you tanking?  Earth. If you aren't tanking and you steal aggro on a boss diediedie.

Do you have enough ki for ToD?  Wind.  Not enough ki?  Fire.

Water stance is pretty much only for FvS/Clerics that splash monk for +2 WIS.
  
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #71 - Apr 15th, 2012 at 10:35am
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Even though I posted earlier in the thread, I don't like to get too involved in these kinds of debates. Generally I like to read what other people, whom I perceive as very reputable, think.

MonkeyArcher posted this in the other forums:

Quote:
With all things equal, fire wind and earth provide nearly identical dps.

For example, a monk with decent gear would average about 100 damage per swing  (50 base +25 effects +25 strikes/crits etc..) and would do 100% mainhand + 80% offhand damage per swing = 180 total.

Wind stance gives 10% more mainhand strikes for +110 mainhand + 80 offhand damage = 190/180 = 5.5% increased dps

Earth stance would give about 5 extra crit damage per hit on average (50 base damage * 2 crits / 20 swings) for 105 mainhand + 85 offhand = 190/180 = 5.5% increased dps

Fire stance would give about 2 damage from strength +3-4 damage per hit from extra ki strikes (200 ki per minute = 40 extra strikes @ approximately 15-20 average damage per strike) for roughly 5-6% increased dps.

The biggest factor is actually whether you miss or not. +2 to hit = 10% more dps, so in the most basic terms, if you hit on a 2+ in all 3 stances, then it really doesn't matter which one you use.   If you don't hit on a 2+ then use fire (or wind for finesse)

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4402734#post4402734

So it seems they're pretty much equal. It looks like a lot depends on your toon's role an what you feel comfortable with.

I'm going to TR my WF Monk Arkat and was going to make him a Half-Orc that used Fire stance. From reading MonkeyArcher's post, I changed my mind and, instead, will make him a Half-Orc Air stance Monk. I just feel more "comfortable" with Air stance and I can make up for the CON loss easier than I can make up for the WIS loss. I will make up the +1 Ki loss by using the Tier 3 level 16 Frozen Tunic crafted with Deathward.
« Last Edit: Apr 15th, 2012 at 10:44am by Arkat »  

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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #72 - Apr 17th, 2012 at 5:12am
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Arkat wrote on Apr 15th, 2012 at 10:35am:
Even though I posted earlier in the thread, I don't like to get too involved in these kinds of debates. Generally I like to read what other people, whom I perceive as very reputable, think.

MonkeyArcher posted this in the other forums:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4402734#post4402734

So it seems they're pretty much equal. It looks like a lot depends on your toon's role an what you feel comfortable with.

I'm going to TR my WF Monk Arkat and was going to make him a Half-Orc that used Fire stance. From reading MonkeyArcher's post, I changed my mind and, instead, will make him a Half-Orc Air stance Monk. I just feel more "comfortable" with Air stance and I can make up for the CON loss easier than I can make up for the WIS loss. I will make up the +1 Ki loss by using the Tier 3 level 16 Frozen Tunic crafted with Deathward.


H-orc in wind stance is one of the best dps builds imo.  Reason? You will have the same str as all of those fire stance builds - but will be in windstance.
  

OnePercenter wrote on May 15th, 2014 at 9:41am:
I just read that the cat followed up by visiting the dog house later that night, dropping some Willie Pete in on the sleeping dog.  #epochsfamiliarFTW

Sim-Sala-Bim wrote on Jan 27th, 2014 at 2:09am:
It seems like Epoch never loses his popularity.
Even against donuts.
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #73 - Apr 17th, 2012 at 9:29am
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Epoch wrote on Apr 17th, 2012 at 5:12am:
H-orc in wind stance is one of the best dps builds imo.  Reason? You will have the same str as all of those fire stance builds - but will be in windstance.

I'm planning on leveling up my H-Orc monk sometime soon...was going to go Light so I could say I capped a Light monk, but after playing to level 12 on Bel, I couldn't take it and switched back to Dark.  Plan was to go Air and Earth for the same reason you mentioned about STR.
  
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Re: Monk DPS: stance?
Reply #74 - Apr 17th, 2012 at 5:58pm
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Feel free to say GFY, live in a fire etc if I'm missing something obvious but if the DPS is about even regardless doesn't it come down to what else the stances do for you? And since Wind is only matching up DPS wise because of extra attacks and Fire is matching up because of Ki strikes and Str doesn't that just mean if you don't hit on a 2 Fire for the to hit and if you do Earth for the HP?
  

                           

Epoch wrote on Mar 14th, 2012 at 5:15am:
When people bring in their personal lives, it is all fair game.  This board promotes trolling.  If you bring something up, expect it to be used against you at a later date if not immediately.  You want to bring up personal shit, well, that is your problem.


Eladiun wrote on May 15th, 2012 at 1:46pm:
If one fails to understand the nuances of elite level trolling they would falsely interpret posts meant to fan the flames as support.
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