Bigjunk wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 11:08am:


You don't even do the name-calling/trolling thing very well.  You clearly have enough time to read the new posts and post a response.  It's not a lack of time that is the problem.   

Asheras wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 11:17am:



You pull "facts" out of your ass.

You're an idiot, nothing else needs to be said.

Kalari wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 11:19am:


Kalari, the 95% number is a very rough estimate.  I do not have any scientific way to poll the populace of all the servers.  I do not play anywhere but Khyber.  My comments make numerous assumptions. 

1.  That the makeup of players on Khyber is basically the same as on the other servers as it relates to ratio of brand new F2P players, casual long term players (5-20 hours per week, dedicated gamers (20-40 hours per week), and power gamers (40+ hours per week).  At least within a standard deviation. 

2.  I play, my two sons play, and my cousin and nephew play.  I am in 2 different guilds.  One is a small, high-end guild and one large guild with a broad range of players.  I play off hours a lot, so I pug quite a bit.  I like to chat while pugging on TR's and such.  I am also in these end game channels:  CE, Prophets, and ER.  I used to be in Revenants channel.  I base a lot of my comments from conversations from all these sources.

It is amazing the difference in conversations with all these different sources.  I see the difference in how my other family (ages 14-30) members perceive the game.  Their skill level varies from novice to end-game.  I see the conversations in channels.  The amount of displeasure for the game and Turbine in channels is very high.  The amount of displeasure in an end-game raid or EE run when the group is channel built or "I need to know you or fuck-off" is very high.  The amount of excitement and fun and interest in the game from any other source (pure pugs, family, guild chat in the big guild, etc) is markedly different.  There is very little angst or hatred.  There is excitement and fun.

I do watch the LFM panel regularly, but nothing scientific.  The end game is definitely off.  The channel membership is off.  At the height you would have 25-45 people in CE, ER, Prophets channels at peak times.  About 100 legit end gamers on the server total.  Out of thousands logged in.  (This is where I get my 95% number.  Comparing end game channel counts to total server population.  I know it is not accurate.  I should use terms like the heavy majority.)  Nowdays, it is in the 15-25 range.  Maybe 60-70 simultaneous.  Harder to tell about the overall population on the server.  But below 20 LFM's are still plentiful.  Epic LFM's and Epic Raids are definitely off, but at peak times there are still 5-6 open LFM's at any time.

I see where power gamers are struggling with the game and Turbine's direction.  I just don't see that with these other segments of the population. 

Yes but you keep saying that as if you know who generates the most revenue.

I know I no longer fit that bill I used to spend oodles on the game just for cosemetics, then mana pots, xp pots, the brief period when I was premium I spend a boat load unlocking stuff I used to have as VIP as well.

Now I have a free lifetime sub, I used to buy extra points a month now all that money is going into other mmo's pockets.

I get what you are trying to say but I have seen more money churned out by hardcore players.  You keep countering its the other side who pays more neither of us have enough proof of this.  And I am pretty sure Turbine really does not wish to alienate any potential paying customers no matter what their skill level. The players themselves may not be important but their money always is.

Kalari wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 12:08pm:


Agreed.  Only Turbine knows who spends the most money.  We don't.  I am inferring this based on their actions.  I believe they will target development at those who spend the most money.  Thus, look at who they target and that's who is spending money.   

They have all of the following in a database that can be data mined:

Player by Player $$ spent(you buying points) in store. (Also with time break outs for when they spend.  Weekends vs weekdays, per week, per month, time of month, etc.)

Player by Player points spent on items in store. (Also with break outs for when and which items purchased.)

Player by Player hours in-game.  (Also with time breakouts)

Player by Player quests run.  With difficulty.  Raid runs.  TR's.

Based on this information they can develop a matrix of who spends the most money.  What they spend it on.  How long they play for on average.  What quest chains they run the most.  What they do the most (EE runs, raids, TR's, etc).

If you think they are totally incompetent and don't know how to do this in a 300 person software company, I think you are mistaken.  I've seen this done as a consultant for software companies that are a 10th their size in all industries.  SaaS/Cloud computing/B2B or B2C model firms all track and mine this data as decision points. 

If you think that their executive management is not staring at these reports when they plan their future development projects, I think you are very mistaken.  The surveys they send out can also be tied back to the above information.  They aren't anonymous.  So the results about what you want can be weighted by your store purchases.

The stuff you see coming out in the new releases is targeted at some portion of their population.  Turbine knows before they begin developing it whom they are targeting. 

If none of the stuff that they are developing is of interest to you, then the logical assumption is that you are not their target.  The assumption that they are trying to target you but are incompetent in doing so is flawed, in my opinion. 

The assumption that they should be targeting you if they are not, is also flawed. The only reason they target content and features at a segment of the population is if the numbers show it will be profitable to do so.  If your segment is not showing enough profitability, you don't get targeted.  You can call them stupid and incompetent for not valuing your segment more than they do, but it is my opinion that incompetence is not a factor in that decision. 

I think we can all agree that the target Turbine is aiming at in U18 and Shadowfell is not the hard core end gamers.  That being the case you can either determine it is because they are intentionally targeting a different segment based on profitability analysis or you can determine that it is because they are stupid incompetent idiots who don't know their own game as well as the players. 

Asheras wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 12:43pm:


that's counterintuitive because the only selling point so far that the expansion has is the level cap jump.   i can understand if the expansion was a level 10-20 venture through forgotten realms, but that hasn't been mentioned (yet)

My questioning their competence has nothing to do with how they market the store to players.

I think the worst thing I did was allow myself to get pulled into the world of Turbine. Though not a direct employee the truth is once you start working for the game you love all the magic and mystique is gone.

They have a viable press outlet, someone who not only writes for a digital magazine, but hosts a podcast and makes a living off being online spreading the word via social network sites.  They have a game that this person (me for those who may lose track) who loved playing it and wanted to promote it as much as possible.

Instead of fully taking advantage of this its mostly dead silence. I get more press feeds from Wizards of the coast for stuff and a shit ton more about LOTRO a player sneezes in Lotro? I'll get more news about that then anything about the upcoming DDO expansion.

Advertising? Hello with the days of viral videos, with all the talented players who have created tons of fan made youtube shows you would think someone there would jump on that as well.

There is too much they could be doing spending far less to almost nothing (who have thunk some fans will work for free to promote their beloved games) that they could tap into without fundamentally fucking up the game we have but nope they choose to focus on changing stuff that doesn't need change and selling shit I could give a rats ass about. Till this changes the rose color glasses I once wore will continue to lay mangled on the side of my desk.

Asheras wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 1:26pm:


There are hundreds of early-game and mid-game quests.  The recent end-game "focus" has created a small amount of new end-game, but also turned the broad range of end-game options into a new mid-game.

Anyone who is fairly new to DDO doesn't need more mid-game options.  Anyone who does need more mid-game options because they've played everything to death isn't going to care about the mid-game options - they're going to care about more end-game options.

Increasing the level cap is only going to make the problem worse.

NOTpopejubal wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 1:51pm:



That's the counter intuitive part...  you increase the cap and add options to start characters at 15 but add no end game.  /head scratcher

Eladiun wrote on May 28^th, 2013 at 3:04pm:



Asheras wrote on May 28^th, 2013 at 8:16pm:



Asheras wrote on May 28^th, 2013 at 10:23pm:


Asheras wrote on May 28^th, 2013 at 10:23pm:




Asheras wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 12:43pm:



Asheras wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 9:38am:



Asheras wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 12:03pm:


For someone who disagrees with the premise that Turbine doesn't give a fuck about us, you sure seem to think that Turbine doesn't give a fuck about us.

Asheras wrote on May 28^th, 2013 at 8:16pm:


Oh OK, so you're just splitting hairs then, I guess just for the sake of argument?  So you're saying Turbine gives maybe 1% of a fuck about us.  That's really not a distinction worth arguing over, is it?

Asheras wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 12:43pm:


A reasonable plan for increasing earnings by pandering to the group of players that is historically most profitable does NOT mean they are particularly clever or even competent. 

This could have come about when management overhead an intern talking about their second year business degree homework.


I will call them incompetent and arrogant for
- ignoring version management
- knowingly releasing avoidably feather_of_sun'ed content
- recklessly changing working systems
- being smug

Even Arkat was able to show some humility.

Their performance is just plain rude.

Bad version management is bad and it is reasonably simple to fix. 

Source Code Management Systems.
Branches. 

all that kind of thing. 

Nothing should ever go live by accident if source control is used. 
If devs aren't using it then management should insist they use it or sack the devs who don't use it.
if management aren't insisting it is used then management  should be fired.

it's pretty simple.

Asheras wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 11:53am:


95% of the players quit playing, so of course they don't experience lag.

It is the 1% stupid fucks like you spouting rubbish about never having the game crash or memory leaks as if that is 95% of the population - and Turbine believes only you.

Every person that I have known - or surveyed at conventions (3000+ when I stopped counting) - has seen the game crash, experienced lag, and/or has been able to replicate the memory leak issue by just logging characters in and out.
Holy fuck, get your head out of your ass and just look at task mananger as you log a client in and out... Why is the working set building up to 3 GB and you start experiencing rubber banding / UMD issues?  Poor programming: They don't release the memory properly and their bad memory manager has issues juggling it all.

It isn't physical memory as I have 12GB and I can run 3 other clients fine... until I start logging them in and out and run up their memory usage.