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Very Hot Topic (More than 75 Replies) Shadowfail Collectors Edition (Read 62631 times)
AtomicMew
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #250 - Jun 2nd, 2013 at 8:30pm
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Btw, mmo-sheet.com shows DDO population down about 40% since 2011.  Go figure.
  
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #251 - Jun 2nd, 2013 at 8:33pm
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Btw, mmo-sheet.com shows DDO population down about 40% since 2011 (U11 LoB/MA update).  Go figure.
  
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #252 - Jun 2nd, 2013 at 9:30pm
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AtomicMew wrote on Jun 2nd, 2013 at 8:24pm:
Likewise, I make some observations + a few assumptions and then state my opinion (like it is fact Smiley). 

You're right that shiradi nerf affected solo players disproportionately, but you're wrong to think that that's the only source of discontent.  I only really started farming gear after epic GH, but this game has been going downhill long before that.  It feels that every update has made this game worse by introducing bugs, introducing P2W or just fucking with game mechanics unnecessarily and devs showing that they plain don't care. 

Empirically, you just cannot say that DDO is doing well.  MMOdata shows a subscription peak in 2010, but unfortunately doesn't have data for 2013.  However, it's pretty obvious that population has been down since 2010 and U18 did next to nothing to get people interested again.  If hardcore players only make up 5% of the base as you say, then it isn't the hardcore players that are making DDO a wasteland, it's the so called casuals who are playing less and leaving for other games. 



P.S. mmosheet.net shows DDO population down about 40% since 2011 (LoB/MA).  Go figure.


With a non-subscriber model and no published numbers from Turbine, it is tough to gauge that kind of decline.  The DDO Oracle shows very little decline over the last 6 months in login activity.  That could mean more players that are less active or fewer players that are more active or, it could mean there has been no change.

If you are going back to 2010, that's not arguable.  That's the peak of F2P.  You couldn't pick a higher point to start with.

I'd agree that since 2010/2011 they have been lost more than they gained.  I don't know how much MoTU was as an uptick.  I would suspect it was a modest increase.  I doubt highly it surpassed 2010/2011.  Their focus on FR seems to say to me that they believe they can attract new customers by building an in depth FR content offering.  They just have to solve the "You have to play 8-16 levels in Eberron before you play in FR" issue.  I guess the Iconic Heroes are their first attempt at it.  I'm not sure how attractive that will be, though.   

 
AtomicMew wrote on Jun 2nd, 2013 at 8:24pm:
just fucking with game mechanics unnecessarily and devs showing that they plain don't care. 

Just because you aren't capable of determining the reason doesn't mean it is unnecessary or that the devs don't care.  I've worked with hundreds of programmers in my career.  Some good.  Some bad.  None of them ever "didn't care" about the quality of their work or customer satisfaction in the programs they were designing.  I think those of you who say the "Dev's don't care" really aught to try harder.  That is a pretty weak premise that doesn't hold much water. 

Same with "they make unnecessary changes."  Either you have no analytic skills, common sense, or you are just too angry to think straight. 
  
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #253 - Jun 2nd, 2013 at 10:03pm
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Talking about a weak premise:

How do you come from "reaching a different conclusion" to "you have no analytical skills?" 

And talking about 2011 as a peak.  Yes... and?  One of the main features of a peak is that it trends down after it goes up.  So since you admit that DDO has done much worse since then, I'm now having trouble seeing your  point.

Are you trying to argue that a 40% reduction in 12 months isn't as bad as it could be?  Keep in mind that June 2012 was MOTU, so when you say that they're focusing on Faerun content it, ostensibly, has failed don't you think?
« Last Edit: Jun 2nd, 2013 at 10:09pm by AtomicMew »  
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #254 - Jun 2nd, 2013 at 11:06pm
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Asheras wrote on Jun 2nd, 2013 at 9:30pm:
<blahbity, blah, blahbity I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about>



Dude, you are the fucking biggest fucking retard regarding this game I have read on here next to herp de herp dumbass from 'Cypress'.

I kind of thought you were just an old player coming back to play for a bit while I lurked, but after reading your post about how premium/F2P cannot get to Eveningstar the other day, I cannot help but wonder at what point do you shut the fuck up and not prove how stupid you are?

Jesus fucking christ.  Every fucking thing you say is basically fucking Turbined anyway.

I mean seriously, when I see a post you make, I skip right past it and read the fucking replies to it, I get tons of enjoyment reading those.

You don't hardly know shit about the fucking game, so stop trying to prove to everyone what a fucking DDO genius you aren't.
  

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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #255 - Jun 2nd, 2013 at 11:26pm
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All of you are wrong. If I don't play the game that means 50% of playerbase is gone. When I play the game and I'm with another person, that means 100% of playerbase is there.

Personally why is anyone even arguing. Only turbine has the actual facts, they are not going to be told ever, all other facts are theoretical and make believe. Go calculate something else or complain about something else.
  
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #256 - Jun 3rd, 2013 at 12:07am
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mudfud wrote on Jun 2nd, 2013 at 11:26pm:
All of you are wrong. If I don't play the game that means 50% of playerbase is gone. When I play the game and I'm with another person, that means 100% of playerbase is there.

Personally why is anyone even arguing. Only turbine has the actual facts, they are not going to be told ever, all other facts are theoretical and make believe. Go calculate something else or complain about something else.


http://ddoracle.com/
http://mmo-sheet.com/
http://mmodata.blogspot.com/
  
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #257 - Jun 3rd, 2013 at 7:54am
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Asheras wrote on Jun 2nd, 2013 at 9:30pm:
With a non-subscriber model and no published numbers from Turbine, it is tough to gauge that kind of decline.  The DDO Oracle shows very little decline over the last 6 months in login activity.  That could mean more players that are less active or fewer players that are more active or, it could mean there has been no change.


or it could mean that I DC 45 times a day (because all of the fucking issues lately), and this is why the numbers make DDO look so busy.

Thelanis has been healthy with LFM's, but do not pretend that these numbers are anything other than Turbine padding them by shitty log in attempts.
  
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #258 - Jun 3rd, 2013 at 9:09am
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Asheras wrote on Jun 2nd, 2013 at 9:30pm:
Just because you aren't capable of determining the reason doesn't mean it is unnecessary or that the devs don't care.  I've worked with hundreds of programmers in my career.  Some good.  Some bad.  None of them ever "didn't care" about the quality of their work or customer satisfaction in the programs they were designing.


The problem for me, and what has finally driven me off, is that while they may indeed care about the quality of whatever code they're working on, they (meaning whoever makes the decisions, not necessarily "the devs") most definitely do not seem to care about player input/suggestions at all. Or at least, input from players who have/had Clerics as their main characters...
  
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #259 - Jun 3rd, 2013 at 9:36am
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umeannothing wrote on Jun 2nd, 2013 at 11:06pm:
You don't hardly know shit about the fucking game, so stop trying to prove to everyone what a fucking DDO genius you aren't.


I knew I liked you.
  
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #260 - Jun 3rd, 2013 at 10:19am
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Asheras wrote on Jun 2nd, 2013 at 9:30pm:
Just because you aren't capable of determining the reason doesn't mean it is unnecessary or that the devs don't care.  I've worked with hundreds of programmers in my career.  Some good.  Some bad.  None of them ever "didn't care" about the quality of their work or customer satisfaction in the programs they were designing.  I think those of you who say the "Dev's don't care" really aught to try harder.  That is a pretty weak premise that doesn't hold much water. 

Same with "they make unnecessary changes."  Either you have no analytic skills, common sense, or you are just too angry to think straight. 


The amount of care and love and craftsmanship put into the product is clearly indicated by the amount of low-hanging fruit that would have been spotted by anyone testing before deployment, was spotted and reported by many players after deployment to the preview server, and was additionally spotted and reported by many players after the crap was put into production.

Not only "game breaking" issues, but highly visible and annoying things like string table errors instead of NPC speech, the dialogue with the airship captain that persists after leaving the airship.

We know the developers can fix things that annoy THEM.  For example, Artificer bolts are now summoned in chunks of 1000 instead of 100 because one year after roll-out, a developer played an artificer long enough to discover that summoning the thousands bolts necessary for play was annoying.

Or how about those decorative outfit skins that are obsoleted by the new cosmetic armor system AND cost a lot of customer good will AND broke things on deployment?  Perhaps I'm too angry - was this change necessary?


There is a lot of craftsmanship and love put into the game - you don't have to look hard to spot it, but the many small and large errors that are avoidably introduced and then left for years and years are like mold on what was a nice looking loaf of bread.


It's very clear that Turbine thinks the rules do not apply to them, and Pet Projects will be put into production regardless of whether or not they address customer needs or wants.


When you're a company full of Experts that are Damn Good at their Job, what would be "just barely not bad enough to get fired right now, but we're going to talk about this next week, because it's bullshit" in any other company must be Awesomium at Turbine.


They need to hire less experts and more people who would like to learn how to do a better job making their customers happy by delivering a quality product that addresses existing and future customer needs in an efficient and sustainable manner.

A person who knows everything already will never learn as much as someone who is trying to learn one new thing every day, even if that one thing is what to NOT do again.


Make something nice, then step on it.  If Turbine WOULD learn to stop at "make something nice"  and not continue with "step on it", the game would be a much different product.
« Last Edit: Jun 3rd, 2013 at 10:56am by OldCoaly »  

Groo The Wanderer wrote on Sep 8th, 2013 at 10:43pm:
they will probably congratulate themselves on how long they "kept it going" never able to see that it could have easily managed to keep itself going for far longer if they had just meddled far less drastically and with some semblance of an actual gameplan.
Darth Anonymous wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 1:11pm:
Hearing something has "merit" but we don't have "time" kind of says everything about how Turbine works on things.
eighnuss wrote on May 27th, 2014 at 12:52pm:
everyone but turbine knows that we are sad they are destroying our game
majmalphunktion wrote on Aug 30th, 2013 at 12:12am:
I don't make the game, I just get tested what they build. Sorry you are not happy.
Skoodge wrote on Nov 27th, 2014 at 6:54am:
DDO is easy to summarize - the greatest game to suck the most ass.
GooFY wrote on Mar 2nd, 2015 at 5:36pm:
Turbine - So incompetent that we are skeptical when they report their own incompetence.  
Meursault wrote on May 11th, 2015 at 8:10pm:
Other companies will settle for shitting out garbage, Turdbin actually prefers to. Especially if they can get us to buy it, that just cracks them up.
Meursault wrote on Nov 12th, 2015 at 2:50pm:
Breaking something and putting it back together isn't as good as not breaking it to begin with, it's not even close.
palmer01 wrote on Nov 20th, 2015 at 9:05am:
Devs do not care what players want - they already have an agenda and give out token gestures so the paladins can feel worthy.
PersonaNonGrata wrote on Oct 4th, 2016 at 1:24am:
The DDO devs aren't motivated by a positive user experience.

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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #261 - Jun 3rd, 2013 at 11:04am
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AtomicMew wrote on Jun 2nd, 2013 at 10:03pm:
Talking about a weak premise:

How do you come from "reaching a different conclusion" to "you have no analytical skills?" 

And talking about 2011 as a peak.  Yes... and?  One of the main features of a peak is that it trends down after it goes up.  So since you admit that DDO has done much worse since then, I'm now having trouble seeing your  point.

Are you trying to argue that a 40% reduction in 12 months isn't as bad as it could be?  Keep in mind that June 2012 was MOTU, so when you say that they're focusing on Faerun content it, ostensibly, has failed don't you think? 



I said "no analytic skills" because it seemed like you were trying to indicate the current development choices were the result of developers who don't care and developers who decide to change things without a reason.  Neither of those concepts hold much water.  Developers always care about what they are doing.  You don't do it for a career or spend 50-60 hours a week doing it and not care.  You also don't just change production systems without a unnecessarily or without a reason.  If they chose to modify it, there was a reason. 

I'm not saying that there has been no decline in player base since the height of F2P.  That is obvious. 

Although, I'm not sure what mmo-sheet.com is talking about.  Their chart looks crazy.  So there was actually a decline in players from 2009 to 2010 and then it shot up by almost double in 2011?  Even though F2P and EU dropped in Sept 2009?  There's no way population declined from 2009 to 2010 after barely an uptick from 2008.  I was here when F2P dropped.  Population on the servers at least doubled.  What happened from 2010 to 2011 to cause a jump by double a year and a half after F2P?  The release of guild airships?  Carnival series?  Red Fens?  LoB?  Since they don't label their axes, I have no idea if that is subs, max connections, logons, active accounts, or what. 

Their numbers are also directly contradicted by mmodata.blogspot.com which shows an aggressive increase from 2009 to 2010.   And nowhere near the overall numbers.  Of course, mmodata doesn't have 2011 or 2012 numbers.  But their 2009/2010 numbers look more accurate, to me.

So, yeah.  I think that 40% decline on mmosheet looks fishy.

I think MoTU brought in some new business for Turbine.  Not nearly as much as anyone would have hoped.  It definitely didn't have that Mod 9/EU feel to it with new players everywhere. 

I don't know if MoTU was a "failure" or just "didn't meet expectations".  Hangover III did not meet expectations.  It's a $100 million budget that will probably earn $150 million.  Not a failure.  But not Hangover I or II style success (which doubled or tripled the budget on earnings).  After Earth will be lucky to get to $100 million in revenue on a $120 million budget.  That's a failure. 

I don't see any reliable post 2010 data, so we just have to guess at what Turbine saw from MoTU.  I remember at the time, that they said it was a huge success, but how much of that was existing players that were already committed customers?  My guess would be the overwhelming majority.
  
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #262 - Jun 3rd, 2013 at 11:43am
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Lots of bloviation in this thread.
  

Stand on hills of long-forgotten yesterdays...

Looking for a sign that the Universal Mind has written you into the Passion Play.
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #263 - Jun 3rd, 2013 at 11:47am
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Arkat wrote on Jun 3rd, 2013 at 11:43am:
Lots of bloviation in this thread.


I'm from Ohio, so what can I say.  It's in my blood.
  
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #264 - Jun 3rd, 2013 at 11:54am
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Arkat wrote on Jun 3rd, 2013 at 11:43am:
Lots of bloviation in this thread.


Bloviation rhymes with Blow Me Nation.
  
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #265 - Jun 3rd, 2013 at 12:22pm
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AtomicMew wrote on Jun 2nd, 2013 at 8:33pm:
Btw, mmo-sheet.com shows DDO population down about 40% since 2011 (U11 LoB/MA update).  Go figure. 



Looking at that chart I completely believe it.  U! is when the game hit the wall and it's been downhill ever since.
  
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #266 - Jun 3rd, 2013 at 1:16pm
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OldCoaly wrote on Jun 3rd, 2013 at 10:19am:
...

There is a lot of craftsmanship and love put into the game - you don't have to look hard to spot it, but the many small and large errors that are avoidably introduced and then left for years and years are like mold on what was a nice looking loaf of bread.

It's very clear that Turbine thinks the rules do not apply to them, and Pet Projects will be put into production regardless of whether or not they address customer needs or wants.

...



that is the gist of it.  you take pride in your own new things (i'm looking in your direction FoS), but have no interest in fixing bugs or shining up things that some jerk did 3 years ago and you've replaced.  it's natural.  tbh, i'm amazed they went back and updated gianthold as i imagine you can count on one hand the devs that are still working now that were working when that went in.

i'm all for a reboot similar to what they did with diablo 2 a few years ago. reset EVERYTHING.   they can change the xp for all the quests, they can make a brand new Titan raid, they can increase drop rates in the desert, they can do whatever they want.  yes thousands of hours of playing by me will be put to waste, maybe keep TR past lives or something but get rid of the items.  that puts a vested interest in improving *everything* and not just making things that you've had a hand in better
  
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #267 - Jun 3rd, 2013 at 1:37pm
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AtomicMew wrote on Jun 3rd, 2013 at 12:07am:


That tells me nothing. I can open a spreadsheet start putting numbers in also and call them fact just like they are.
Until I see they got there exact numbers directly from turdbine it is all speculative.

My numbers were the actual facts. When I play with my buddy 100% of playerbase is active. When I logoff 50% is active. Nuff said. Oh and make sure from now on when you state some facts about it, quote my post here so it can also be known as a fact.
  
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #268 - Jun 3rd, 2013 at 3:42pm
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mudfud wrote on Jun 3rd, 2013 at 1:37pm:
y numbers were the actual facts. When I play with my buddy 100% of playerbase is active. When I logoff 50% is active. Nuff said. Oh and make sure from now on when you state some facts about it, quote my post here so it can also be known as a fact.


Dumb and Dumber must be you and your buddy's names.

DDO Oracle is directly taken from the Turbine API.  This is one reason Turbine was trying to kill the API so the player base has no idea of the degradation of the amount of players.

That was also a reason why MyDDO got the axe(amongst several).  People were able to use it to determine how many players there were.

Turbine does not want anyone knowing the amount of the player base.  If it was growing, ala September 2009, when Turbine use to proudly announce how DDO was growing, then it would be in a press release.

Now, google Turbine and you will find numerous releases about LOTRO and Infinite Crisis, nothing about DDO.

How come LOTRO has a Player's Council and DDO does not?  Why, because there are more LOTRO players than DDO.

Mudfud, you can make your dumb claim of 100% player base when there are two of you(how asinine) but you will be 100% wrong.
  
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #269 - Jun 3rd, 2013 at 4:15pm
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notajedi wrote on Jun 3rd, 2013 at 3:42pm:
Dumb and Dumber must be you and your buddy's names.

DDO Oracle is directly taken from the Turbine API.  This is one reason Turbine was trying to kill the API so the player base has no idea of the degradation of the amount of players.

That was also a reason why MyDDO got the axe(amongst several).  People were able to use it to determine how many players there were.

Turbine does not want anyone knowing the amount of the player base.  If it was growing, ala September 2009, when Turbine use to proudly announce how DDO was growing, then it would be in a press release.

Now, google Turbine and you will find numerous releases about LOTRO and Infinite Crisis, nothing about DDO.

How come LOTRO has a Player's Council and DDO does not?  Why, because there are more LOTRO players than DDO.

Mudfud, you can make your dumb claim of 100% player base when there are two of you(how asinine) but you will be 100% wrong.


No, you are wrong. I get my data directly from the api like ddo oracle does.
Unless turbine says that is where ddo oracle gets there information from, it is still speculation.
But I'm 100% right and serious when I say I get my information from the api to.
Claiming something doesn't make it any less true. Or in simpler words for you. If you can claim ddo oracle is 100% right because of the api why can't my claim be 100% right also since i use the api to get my data to.

And yeah your right, myddo was shut down for your reasons. Of course it wasn't shut down because it didn't work all the time. Of course it wasn't shut down because you could use the quest completed thing to see what quests are exploitable. Of course it wasn't shut down because you could use myddo to find out players usernames.

I mean your reason has to be the reason they shut down myddo after all, since those other more major concerns you didn't bring up.
« Last Edit: Jun 3rd, 2013 at 4:20pm by mudfud »  
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #270 - Jun 3rd, 2013 at 4:43pm
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notajedi wrote on Jun 3rd, 2013 at 3:42pm:
Dumb and Dumber must be you and your buddy's names.

DDO Oracle is directly taken from the Turbine API.  This is one reason Turbine was trying to kill the API so the player base has no idea of the degradation of the amount of players.

That was also a reason why MyDDO got the axe(amongst several).  People were able to use it to determine how many players there were.

Turbine does not want anyone knowing the amount of the player base.  If it was growing, ala September 2009, when Turbine use to proudly announce how DDO was growing, then it would be in a press release.

Now, google Turbine and you will find numerous releases about LOTRO and Infinite Crisis, nothing about DDO.

How come LOTRO has a Player's Council and DDO does not?  Why, because there are more LOTRO players than DDO.

Mudfud, you can make your dumb claim of 100% player base when there are two of you(how asinine) but you will be 100% wrong.


You don't know that Turbine killed the API because people were using to get population information.  Tinfoil hat time.

You don't know that Turbine killed myddo for the same reason.  More tinfoil hat.

I'm not sure what having a player council has to do with anything related to population counts. 

I do agree that the DDO Oracle numbers are probably the best ones to use for tracking activity level, although, even they have some accuracy issues. 

None of the other web sites quote a source or methodology, so it's hard to gauge their accuracy. 
  
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #271 - Jun 3rd, 2013 at 4:46pm
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Bigjunk wrote on Jun 3rd, 2013 at 12:22pm:
Looking at that chart I completely believe it.  U! is when the game hit the wall and it's been downhill ever since.


Yeah, but you also still believe in the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, and the fact that you looking just like your Dad's best friend is pure coincidence.   Grin
  
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #272 - Jun 3rd, 2013 at 8:12pm
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Here's another interesting link: http://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=dungeons+and+dragons+online

Shows a peak right after the initial 2006 release followed by another peak at the time the game went F2P.  MOTU 2012 was but a small blip of interest.
  
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #273 - Jun 3rd, 2013 at 9:56pm
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AtomicMew wrote on Jun 3rd, 2013 at 8:12pm:
Here's another interesting link: http://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=dungeons+and+dragons+online

Shows a peak right after the initial 2006 release followed by another peak at the time the game went F2P.  MOTU 2012 was but a small blip of interest. 


Now that chart matches what I'd have expected.  I'd suspect that you could find a correlation between this and new player accounts.
  
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Re: Shadowfail Collectors Edition
Reply #274 - Jun 3rd, 2013 at 11:20pm
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If Turbine as a company actually gave a shit about their process, they'd be able to make accurate release notes BEFORE the update gets sent out to the servers.

And Jerry wouldn't be constantly surprised by the "so what's actually in this update" question that gets asked EVERY time he posts that there's an update.  Seriously.  "There's an update.  It's for [whatever the update is for]" has got to be easier to write than:

"There's an update"
       "Hey, what's the update for?"
"It's for [whatever the update is for]"
  
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