Bigjunk wrote on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 10:47am:

I get that. Way too many people focus on how to fix the problem rather than stating the expected outcome.  Unintended consequences need to be minimized, and players don't have the visibility into the game engine to do that.

For example, focus on what's a reasonable chance to affect mobs with a DC based spell in EE content with a suitably geared first life character.  Once that's been decided, then it's easy to scale monsters/characters under the covers.  Example:

• EE Caster mob: 70% chance to instakill; 10% chance for Enchantment effects; 90% chance to apply full spell damage (traditionally has a high Will and low Fort/Dex save)
• EE Ranged/Rogue: 50% chance to instakill; 30% chance to apply full spell damage; 40% to apply Enchantment effects (traditionally has high Reflex, moderate Fort and low Will)
• EE Melee: 30% chance to instakill; 70% chance for Enchantment effects; 90% for full spell damage (traditionally high Fort save, low Reflex/Will save)

Racial mob template adjusts the chances.

I'm not suggesting these numbers nor looking for consensus.  That's the kind of discussion that needs to take place though.

Carpone wrote on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 11:12am:


Turbine won't read or use this post so your points are invalid.

Keep up the bitching and moaning worse than my ex-gf's did.

Bigjunk wrote on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 11:36am:


I agree that the DC range isn't that large.  But that's not really the issue.

For a Necro DC, the only past life benefit is +1 from Wiz and completionist. 

Assuming someone can get the basics (necro item, spell mastery item, standard Int +8, +3, +1 boosts) with minor effort,  your range between a "maxxed" DC caster and a decent effort DC Caster is probably about +4.  That's a pretty tight range. 

Spell pen is another matter.  But that applies more in MoTU content than GH. 

The problem will come,  however, with where to set the level.  Unless you want EE to become a DC caster fest (like Chrono scroll farming used to be), you need to make the DC something that is not going to touch 50% on a maxxed caster WITH preparation. (my opinion) The DC's need to stay at a point where it is more beneficial to bring a party with melees, divines, and arcanes.  That point only exists at the point where it is too inefficient to use insta-death as the primary means of dealing with trash mobs.  Otherwise, since the loot is all BtCoE, it will become a caster only thing. 

What's "too inefficient"?  That's where people differ (and the DC range has to expand as a result).  Some will find it too onerous if they have to prep targets to get no-fail.  Some are OK at 70% success or 50% success even with having to prep.  Some are OK with chugging massive amounts of mana pots to get easy access to EE loot rolls.  Some are not.  This is where the range expands.  It's not so much about the mechanical gap between 1st Life, moderately geared or specd vs. maxxed DC spec'd/geared too.  It's about managing that and players affinity for trivalizing EE with insta-death spells.

There are ways to get necro DC's to have some value without being the sole method to clear the dungeon.  But it's a tough balance to strike.  And it doesn't take much to tip the tables one way or the other. 

I think putting 50% non-prepped on an average mob is too high.  With Prep, you are killing it 70% of the time.  Low fort mobs are probably no-fail range.  High fort mobs are probably 20% without prep and 40-50% with prep.  That's going to make it possible for casters to handle the whole quest solo.  That's a bad place to be. 

They should set the bar for maxxed DC, btw.  Non-dedicated/geared DC casters should not expect much success in EE content. 

rest wrote on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 1:19pm:


You got me, I'm really Shade.  Though sometimes I post as Thrudh and Hendrick so any devs reading this should promptly ban those accounts.

Glenalth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 3:06pm:


That would just be retarded.

The to-hit/AC system doesn't even work until that retarded formula they came up with.

spathic wrote on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 3:29pm:


Maxx Package is a good porn name . . . I think I found the name for my next account . . .

Persiflage wrote on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 3:46pm:

This is one of the core problems with the current DC system.  Martial tactics and instakills are not equivalent, but they use equivalent formulas.

Bigjunk wrote on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 4:23pm:


I wouldn't go 5-10 over the threshold. I'd free up item slots or twists

Bigjunk wrote on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 4:23pm:


You're missing the point.  It's not about stuns, it's about stuns and trips and fascinate and ED abilities and weapon effects and anything else that has a saving throw, many of which are - or have the potential to be - of a higher DC than spells.  They use the same mechanics: as Carpone pointed out in much more succinct form than I, this is a core problem with the saving throw system inherited from 3.5

So if the Devs set saving throws to a point where stuns (or whatever) are *not* no-fail, you haven't got a prayer of landing spells.  That's not to say that balance isn't possible, but the point is that balancing saves is a broader issue than just spell DC's, which are - as you said - in a relatively narrow range.

The lack of possible variation in saving throws is the reason that half or more of a character's abilities are rendered useless in Epic content.  Much as I'm a fan of preserving DnD rules where appropriate, the whole saving throw thing has been a mess forever  :/

kierg10 wrote on Jul 10^th, 2013 at 8:11pm:

Any of you that wants to post something anonymously can just PM me.  I'll post it.