Bigjunk wrote on Jul 11
th, 2013 at 11:36am:
I get what you're saying. It would be a great conversation for a "let's talk . . ." thingy. For now I'd just like them to lower some of the saves by 3-5 overall in EE.
See unlike to-hit/AC insta-kill DC is a much narrower ranger between a maxxed out mook and somebody who just builds for DCs. My PM's a 56 necro DC which I think is the highest you can get on a non-completionist.
Take away the Litany, +5 tome, and PL that drops to a 53. That's something anyone can get with more or less random-gen loot and some work. Nothing exotic, just grinding out some EDs and actually equipping for DC-casting.
It's a much narrower range than the broken to-hit/AC number we had pre-U14 so changing from D20 to some rocket-science formula just isn't needed.
What do I consider reasonable? I feel a high-DC caster (maxxed or close to it) should be able to land a finger 50% of the time in EE on an average fort-save target without prepping.
I agree that the DC range isn't that large. But that's not really the issue.
For a Necro DC, the only past life benefit is +1 from Wiz and completionist.
Assuming someone can get the basics (necro item, spell mastery item, standard Int +8, +3, +1 boosts) with minor effort, your range between a "maxxed" DC caster and a decent effort DC Caster is probably about +4. That's a pretty tight range.
Spell pen is another matter. But that applies more in MoTU content than GH.
The problem will come, however, with where to set the level. Unless you want EE to become a DC caster fest (like Chrono scroll farming used to be), you need to make the DC something that is not going to touch 50% on a maxxed caster WITH preparation. (my opinion) The DC's need to stay at a point where it is more beneficial to bring a party with melees, divines, and arcanes. That point only exists at the point where it is too inefficient to use insta-death as the primary means of dealing with trash mobs. Otherwise, since the loot is all BtCoE, it will become a caster only thing.
What's "too inefficient"? That's where people differ (and the DC range has to expand as a result). Some will find it too onerous if they have to prep targets to get no-fail. Some are OK at 70% success or 50% success even with having to prep. Some are OK with chugging massive amounts of mana pots to get easy access to EE loot rolls. Some are not. This is where the range expands. It's not so much about the mechanical gap between 1st Life, moderately geared or specd vs. maxxed DC spec'd/geared too. It's about managing that and players affinity for trivalizing EE with insta-death spells.
There are ways to get necro DC's to have some value without being the sole method to clear the dungeon. But it's a tough balance to strike. And it doesn't take much to tip the tables one way or the other.
I think putting 50% non-prepped on an average mob is too high. With Prep, you are killing it 70% of the time. Low fort mobs are probably no-fail range. High fort mobs are probably 20% without prep and 40-50% with prep. That's going to make it possible for casters to handle the whole quest solo. That's a bad place to be.
They should set the bar for maxxed DC, btw. Non-dedicated/geared DC casters should not expect much success in EE content.