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when will the investigation end? (Read 28827 times)

Asheras Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline This is why we can't have nice things. Posts: 10230 Location: Ohio Joined: Jun 9^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #50 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 4:52pm	Print Post
	Arkat wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 3:38pm: Hmmm...trick question or, rather, a question with MULTIPLE facets. If I'm in charge of Turbine what is the chance I have a Good DBA? Chances are I have a DBA. I didn't say I would have a Good one (I'm assuming a "talent" is a Good DBA) but I probably (51% chance) have one. Now, that means there's like a 49% chance I don't have one and an even BIGGER chance that if I have one, he/she isn't very good. Remember, this is Turbine we're talking about - the same company that discarded their "chaff" but kept Feather_of_Sun. I'm not at all confident in their ability to recognize "talent," much less keep it. In a firm with 19 million per year in revenue, the chances are 99.9% likely you have a DBA team. (As in more than one DBA). Whether they are "good" or "bad", they will be able to write basic SELECT statements like the guys on this board have been tossing around. That's like bottom 5% of the skill set type of stuff. It's like the chances of finding an auto mechanic who can't figure out how to put windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant into your car. They don't have to be "good" they just have to have a pulse.


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Half Elf Creeper Waterworks Kobold Offline Fer.nan.do thinks I'm hawt Posts: 131 Location: Ghallanda Joined: Nov 22^nd, 2011 Gender:	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #51 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 5:03pm	Print Post
	My guess is that the answer is much simpler.� It is likely VERY possible to compare bank stores to the quantities pre- bug reports.� However, what does that buy you?� You could get a few perps by simply comparing data, but I am sure many dupers were moving things to other toons, trading 20 scales for 1 item, giving things to guildees or others. That, along with crafting their ill-gotten bugtastic gains into equipment keeps it a very manual process to parse the data.� �Then, you have the folks who likely are paid incentives based on store sales going ape **** about losing sales.� I wonder how many shards were purchased to buy things from the auction house because the prices were super low? If this is manpower intensive to extrapolate the data, then managers are going to argue that their time should be spent on other revenue generating things.� Besides, if Turbine had spare manpower, you'd figure the bug-list wouldn't be miles long, right? I suspect we'll see notes like Tolero's saying 'the guilty will be punished! Their banks will be pillaged! Grrrr!!!'� Then a few people caught in the act or doing ridiculous things (like selling a zillion rare items on the shard exchange) will be banned/inventory raped/etc.� The rest in the vast majority will be ignored because of the politics and the manpower required to accurately and completely deal with the issue - not because of incompetence or conspiracy. Just my $.02...
	« Last Edit: Oct 14^th, 2013 at 5:05pm by Half Elf Creeper »

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Aeolwind HERALD OF HATE Offline DDO: More broken than peanut brittle Posts: 2074 Location: Sarlona Joined: Apr 13^th, 2011 Gender:	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #52 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 5:04pm	Print Post
	cdr wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 4:32pm: Rather than quote anything - there's too much - I'll just say: wow, Aeolwind is dumb. I doubt either of us has access to the DB structure. I'm basing my points off of database manipulation from the game DBA I work with occasionally. Diffs were used to track RMT items move around the server. And holy crap if you do, share. Flav wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 4:50pm: Another proof they are light on the DBA domain. They can't get it fixed when it's easy to hunt down. I'm trying to come up with scenarios where you wouldn't be able to find it. Hardcoded save files maybe? There isn't a database at all?


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Meat-Head 53%Moron57%Misunderstood Offline Why am I reading crap on this forum? Posts: 12345 Location: Oregon Joined: Dec 5^th, 2011 Gender:	Turbine DBA Team Reply #53 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 5:04pm	Print Post
	Asheras wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 4:52pm: They don't have to be "good" they just have to have a pulse.�

	A half-dozen boss Vaulties donated generously with real money to my classroom during a fundraiser in May 2015 to get poor kids books to read. I won't forget that. They know who they are, and they freaking rule. Disavowed wrote on Apr 19^th, 2016 at 1:51pm: Once you meat your personal goal you might want to give that some consideration. Artorias wrote on Feb 10^th, 2016 at 2:15pm: Good grief Meat, you're hopeless. You would label the simple act of taking a shit as someone obeying the divine law of nature to leave a proof of existence.
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Flav Vault Frog Offline One Frog to Rule them All! Posts: 9972 Location: Land of the Frogs Joined: Aug 29^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #54 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 5:09pm	Print Post
	Aeolwind wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 5:04pm: I'm trying to come up with scenarios where you wouldn't be able to find it.� Hardcoded save files maybe?� There isn't a database at all? Come on, sed, awk and grep do wonder on flat text files. Even the dumbest of the dumbest of the guys that have root access somewhere knows enough about it to manage after a few hours of tinkering to get something that does it. Now if it's a bunch of packed ( somehow ) files it might make things harder... But I don't believe there's no SQL or LDAP database on the backend of the game, it's just too critical. Not being able to find them is pure lazyness from F_o_S that has decided that he wanted to screw up old players with grandfathered items.

	Yes my avatar is an Hermine eating a Greenland Lemming for brunch.
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Aeolwind HERALD OF HATE Offline DDO: More broken than peanut brittle Posts: 2074 Location: Sarlona Joined: Apr 13^th, 2011 Gender:	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #55 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 5:27pm	Print Post
	Flav wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 5:09pm: Come on, sed, awk and grep do wonder on flat text files. Even the dumbest of the dumbest of the guys that have root access somewhere knows enough about it to manage after a few hours of tinkering to get something that does it. I'm just playing devils advocate to try to figure out why not. We already know a lot is hard coded because of doors and mushrooms. Save files in Hex? Trying to come up with reasons why something can't be found that exists in plain site is obnoxiously annoying. I'm not a Turbine apologist by any stretch, but it staggers the imagination. They could also just be lying as well, that would be the most logical explanation.


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Asheras Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline This is why we can't have nice things. Posts: 10230 Location: Ohio Joined: Jun 9^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #56 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 5:50pm	Print Post
	You guys are all assuming that bans haven't come down because they can't find the people who duped. Maybe they have found and know everyone who duped. Maybe it approaches 40-50% of the server population. Maybe they don't want to ban that large a percent of the population. Maybe they write MORE SQL queries and know not just duped/didn't dupe but they classify dupers as Dupers and Superdupers. Superdupers duped and sold on the AH. Or Duped in massive quantities. Or duped after a certain date and time. Or some combination. MAYBE they cross referenced it with whether you were ViP or premium. How many $$ you spent in the store or how many TP Codes you redeemed on your account. Maybe they decided what % of the player base they could AFFORD to ban (and still make an example) and found people who were egregious offenders who did not damage profitability too much and banned them. Or maybe they can't write SQL queries to save their ass and don't have any DBA's.


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iliveyourdream13 Puppy Farmer Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 1521 Joined: Oct 8^th, 2013	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #57 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 5:56pm	Print Post
	I think you're slightly mistaken about what a lot of DBAs do anymore.� They generally have little knowledge of application logic, or rules applied to data outside the constraints of things inside the DB, indexes, and the like.� It's exceedingly likely the DBAs understand little about the data actually stored in the structures.� Most DBAs concern themselves with uptimes, efficient data access, backup procedures, disaster recovery, etc.� They might be masters of SQL, but if they have no idea what the data means in the columns, those SQL skills doesn't do them much good. In the olden days, DBAs would be more likely to be old school application devs who shifted into DBA work as relational databases became the industry norm.� Now, my guess is you have a sizable contigent who get hired strictly on knowing how to manage the DBs inside the company and little to nothing about the software or applications that use them. Does anyone even know whether DDO even uses a true relational SQL DB?� I don't know that it's been said one way or the other. But really, they've already proven they don't understand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACID, so expecting them to easily figure out what your suggesting is a bridge too far methinks.


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Half Elf Creeper Waterworks Kobold Offline Fer.nan.do thinks I'm hawt Posts: 131 Location: Ghallanda Joined: Nov 22^nd, 2011 Gender:	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #58 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 5:59pm	Print Post
	Extra points to Asheras for adding another dimension to the term 'Superduper'. Well crafted (pun not intended)


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OnePercenter Advocatus Diaboli Offline Ants Eat Dead Grasshoppers Posts: 9985 Joined: Dec 4^th, 2011 Gender:	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #59 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 6:04pm	Print Post
	Asheras wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 5:50pm: You guys are all assuming that bans haven't come down because they can't find the people who duped.� Maybe they have found and know everyone who duped.� Maybe it approaches 40-50% of the server population. Maybe they don't want to ban that large a percent of the population.� Maybe they write MORE SQL queries and know not just duped/didn't dupe but they classify dupers as Dupers and Superdupers.� Superdupers duped and sold on the AH.� Or Duped in massive quantities.� Or duped after a certain date and time.� Or some combination. MAYBE they cross referenced it with whether you were ViP or premium.� How many $$ you spent in the store or how many TP Codes you redeemed on your account.� Maybe they decided what % of the player base they could AFFORD to ban (and still make an example) and found people who were egregious offenders who did not damage profitability too much and banned them.� Or maybe they can't write SQL queries to save their ass and don't have any DBA's. Oh, Hell, this new Pay to Exploit and Win angle is awesome. Please post on the mains... Exploit Ban Balm...20,000 TPs!

	Feynman wrote on Jan 20^th, 2015 at 4:57pm: One thing for everyone who is a "skeptic" on this issue: Insurance companies are basing their underwriting on the assumption that it is real. They are refusing to write policies on homes that are likely to be in danger from rising seas 20 years from now, even though the resale rate of the homes is so high that they could keep writing policies for another 10 years and still not have to pay out on 1 policy in 5, but that would be irresponsible. Unethical, as well, but that's never stopped anyone before. IMARANGER wrote on Jan 11^th, 2014 at 6:12pm: It is fairly natural to assume that the fair price for the pot is the fair value of the resources I needed to make the pot plus the fair value of my labor. IMARANGER wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 4:56pm: You were right this time, OnePercenter.� iliveyourdream13 wrote on May 14^th, 2014 at 2:02pm: #bringbackreadingcomprehension
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Aeolwind HERALD OF HATE Offline DDO: More broken than peanut brittle Posts: 2074 Location: Sarlona Joined: Apr 13^th, 2011 Gender:	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #60 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 6:08pm	Print Post
	OnePercenter wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 6:04pm: Oh, Hell, this new Pay to Exploit and Win angle is awesome. Please post on the mains... Exploit Ban Balm...20,000 TPs! I gotta admit, it is pretty awesome lol


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Asheras Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline This is why we can't have nice things. Posts: 10230 Location: Ohio Joined: Jun 9^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #61 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 6:19pm	Print Post
	OnePercenter wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 6:04pm: Oh, Hell, this new Pay to Exploit and Win angle is awesome.� Please post on the mains...� Exploit Ban Balm...20,000 TPs! Get out of Ban Free Card - 20,000 TP.


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�ed Dragon Raider Offline WTB Souls, PST Posts: 227 Joined: May 8^th, 2012	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #62 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 6:59pm	Print Post
	I have it on good authority that turbines database of choice is Filemaker Pro...


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NOTpopejubal Epic Poster Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 4096 Location: Let go or get dragged. Joined: Apr 17^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #63 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 7:11pm	Print Post
	Flav wrote on Oct 13^th, 2013 at 1:40pm: Probably not. My Indians sit on cases for two weeks before looking at them and trying to close them for silly reasons. [columbusday]You need to give them more beads and smallpox or they'll slack off.[/columbusday]


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Carpone Puppy Farmer Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 1695 Joined: Jul 2^nd, 2011 Gender:	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #64 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 7:21pm	Print Post
	The entire discussion around database searches is stupid. The harm is done. There's no reversing it no matter how much technical prowess you think Turbine has. If Turbine wants to solve this in the future, they need to implement a bug bounty. When it's in the best interest of a player to report an exploit, rather than use it, then Turbine wins. 20k TPs for the first one to report the exploit is nothing to Turbine, but quite a bit to a player. This isn't new. Turbine needs to take a lesson from bug bounty programs run by Microsoft, Google and others. Bug bounties work.


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pnellesen Titan Demolisher Offline We can't all just get along. Posts: 311 Joined: Dec 6^th, 2011	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #65 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 7:38pm	Print Post
	Not sure when it will end, or if it's ended, but I'm still playing...


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mudfud Shroud Slacker Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 1123 Joined: Nov 17^th, 2011	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #66 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 7:42pm	Print Post
	Asheras wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 6:19pm: Get out of Ban Free Card - 20,000 TP. HAHA That's funny. The funny part of it would be you couldn't use the vip points, you would have to buy them directly from the game with the card on file.


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BaublePouch Korthos Resident Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 10 Joined: Oct 11^th, 2013	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #67 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 9:06pm	Print Post
	Carpone wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 7:21pm: The entire discussion around database searches is stupid.� The harm is done.� There's no reversing it no matter how much technical prowess you think Turbine has. If Turbine wants to solve this in the future, they need to implement a bug bounty.� When it's in the best interest of a player to report an exploit, rather than use it, then Turbine wins.� 20k TPs for the first one to report the exploit is nothing to Turbine, but quite a bit to a player. This isn't new. Turbine needs to take a lesson from bug bounty programs run by Microsoft, Google and others.� Bug bounties work. That is assuming Twerpine will respond to the report. It took them several years to catch on to this one. And I think they had more than one person giving them a heads up.


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Meursault Horoluth Raider Offline I Love Freedom of Speech Posts: 2410 Location: Hartford, CT; USA Joined: Aug 22^nd, 2013 Gender:	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #68 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 9:13pm	Print Post
	Carpone wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 7:21pm: Turbine needs to take a lesson from bug bounty programs run by Microsoft, Google and others.� Bug bounties work. I completely agree Turbine needs to do this, but it isn't even their biggest problem. Turbine knew about this well in advance and did nothing - isn't this what MM was here smirking about? Learning about exploits isn't their problem. Caring enough to fix them is their problem. How many people have reported problems on Lamania only to have them go live weeks later? Turbine could have tons of free QC if they'd only just listen. They have a near fanatical fanbase that would work many unpaid hours for the betterment of the game. All we ask is to not be completely ignored, how is that too much for Turbine to afford? Instead all we get is whine, whine, whine, Lamania is a preview server not a beta test server. Well DUH, it's your server, MAKE it a beta test server! It drives me crazy when those moronic fanbois say how Turbine can't afford to do it right. I love this debacle because it proves to anyone with more than half a brain that Turbine can't afford to keep doing it wrong. What I'd love to get out of this is somebody high up at Turbine coming forward and owning this, along with a transparent plan - something we the community could watch happening - to change things. A promise to make all bug reports public and no push to live until a build was stable on Lamania for 2 weeks would do it. Am I holding my breath? No, but I AM holding my credit card ...

	Turdbin, keep changing the DDO rules, because McDonalds sold over 200 billion hamburgers by changing the recipe for their Special Sauce every couple of months to keep interest up.
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Arkat Chonus Christ Offline Hola Bienvenido Posts: 12345 Location: Wyoming Joined: Jul 13^th, 2009 Gender:	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #69 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 9:35pm	Print Post
	Asheras wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 4:52pm: In a firm with 19 million per year in revenue, the chances are 99.9% likely you have a DBA team.� (As in more than one DBA). Whether they are "good" or "bad", they will be able to write basic SELECT statements like the guys on this board have been tossing around.� That's like bottom 5% of the skill set type of stuff.� It's like the chances of finding an auto mechanic who can't figure out how to put windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant into your car.� They don't have to be "good" they just have to have a pulse.� Your confidence in Turbine fitting your model of an average company is disturbing Ash. Seriously, where have you been for the last 8 years this game has been out? Maybe they had a clue about what they were doing for the first couple of years but ever since "vast and fucking mysterious" I have almost ZERO confidence Turbine does anything the way they should. Edited: My last sentence was a bit unfair. F_o_S actually did a good thing with the new augment system. Kudos to him for that. Edited the sentence accordingly by adding the word "almost."
	« Last Edit: Oct 15^th, 2013 at 9:21am by Arkat »
	Stand on hills of long-forgotten yesterdays... Looking for a sign that the Universal Mind has written you into the Passion Play.
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Asheras Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline This is why we can't have nice things. Posts: 10230 Location: Ohio Joined: Jun 9^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #70 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 10:13pm	Print Post
	Meursault wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 9:13pm: A promise to make all bug reports public and no push to live until a build was stable on Lamania for 2 weeks would do it. Am I holding my breath? No, but I AM holding my credit card ... Keep in mind that chasing "zero bugs" is a diminishing returns proposition. You have to balance regularly releasing content with your QA process. It's an engineering trade off. The pendulum can't swing too far to either side.


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Meursault Horoluth Raider Offline I Love Freedom of Speech Posts: 2410 Location: Hartford, CT; USA Joined: Aug 22^nd, 2013 Gender:	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #71 - Oct 14^th, 2013 at 10:33pm	Print Post
	Asheras wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 10:13pm: It's an engineering trade off. OK, overall I agree, but I think for at least a short while they have to go overboard in the "hard on bugs" direction to win back customer confidence. If they slip back to "no major bugs" after 6 months that's fine. There is a sort of relationship equity, and they are pretty deeply in debt at this point. They need to pay back some of that good will grace we've extended them before they ask us to give them the benefit of the doubt again. It's like if your girlfriend catches you texting another woman she may expect you to bring flowers for a few months to prove you are sorry, even if she doesn't excpect you to keep up with the flowers forever. Turbine wasn't just texting, they got caught with their pants down. This calls for serious jewelery for a while

	Turdbin, keep changing the DDO rules, because McDonalds sold over 200 billion hamburgers by changing the recipe for their Special Sauce every couple of months to keep interest up.
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Flav Vault Frog Offline One Frog to Rule them All! Posts: 9972 Location: Land of the Frogs Joined: Aug 29^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #72 - Oct 15^th, 2013 at 3:30am	Print Post
	Aeolwind wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 5:27pm: We already know a lot is hard coded because of doors and mushrooms. Save files in Hex?� Doors and mushrooms are environment, they are not contained in the database, they are part of client_gamelogic.dat, client_cell_x.dat and client_mesh.dat ( and m�aybe a few more ). And they are in HEX ( just look at the fucking files with the information available here ) I suspect what is saved in the database is pointers to these file. For example to take again that +1 holy rapier of Pure Good with Festival Frost on it : item_name ( +1 Frost Rapier of Pure Good ) item_owner ( FlavID ) item_Bonus ( ^+1 ) Item_prefix0 ( ^Frost ) Item_prefix ( ^holy ) item_suffix ( ^pure good ) ^<something> being a pointer towards the relevant power in the gamelogic file and the relevant description in the local_XX file That saves transaction size, as all the pointers are 64bits. It also explains puny things like the mail system being based on firstname ( 1 Firstname = 1 64bit ID ) But all that is WAGs.

	Yes my avatar is an Hermine eating a Greenland Lemming for brunch.
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NOTdarth Puppy Farmer Offline Save the Planet, Kill Yourself Posts: 1495 Joined: Oct 15^th, 2012 Gender:	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #73 - Oct 15^th, 2013 at 3:39am	Print Post
	I have an Icy Burst Slicing Bleeding (Lacerating) of Stunning Handwraps, do they get treated the same way?


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Astraghal Abbot Raider Offline Posts: 883 Joined: Jun 13^th, 2010	Re: when will the investigation end? Reply #74 - Oct 15^th, 2013 at 4:40am	Print Post
	Do people honestly think that Turbine are having their employees trawl through thousands of accounts for duplicated stacks? Just think of the man hours involved and how much that would cost versus what they might lose out in store sales over the short run. Just how many True Globes and Jewelers Kits can an account use anyway? As far as trashing the ASAH goes, well those Astral Shards had to come from somewhere and with the massive tax on transactions, they are being bled out of the system quite fast. Turbine makes their money from convenience items they sell in the store, they don't lose money because some people are no longer running an old raid or quest for some insanely low drop rate ingredient. Plus the loot cycle is moving quite fast these days, so nothing really stays compelling for as long as it used to.
	« Last Edit: Oct 15^th, 2013 at 4:42am by Astraghal »

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