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AME2760
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Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Nov 26th, 2013 at 2:50pm
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So I know that enlarge works on magic missiles and that as an arcane shiradi, spamming missiles is one of the more bread-and-buttery things going on.

Is the double range on the missiles useful enough to bother taking enlarge if you're doing a sorc or a multiclass where you don't get as many feats as in wizard?

Right now, I'm working up a build and am torn between force of personality and enlarge as an extra sort of "filler" feat. 

So anyone's that's used it with a Shiradi arcane... what are your thoughts?  Would it be worth trading something (such as saves) to pick it up to be able to be a better "missile sniper"?
  

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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #1 - Nov 26th, 2013 at 3:15pm
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When shits dead, your will save doesn't matter.
  

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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #2 - Nov 26th, 2013 at 3:30pm
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I had it on my Wiz Shiradi in the early days when it was big funsies. I liked it and could spare the feat (/2Mnk). There's plenty of feats knocking around these days so why not is my view. I imagine it's not an optimum DPS choice but a) who the fuck needs optimum DPS these days and b) it's great watching CM/MM SLAs fly super far.
  
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AME2760
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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #3 - Nov 26th, 2013 at 3:34pm
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I'll try it out anyway... I can always just use a free feat swap if it's not what I'm looking for.

Thanks for the feedback.
  

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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #4 - Nov 26th, 2013 at 4:37pm
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It's not worth it on a sorc.  The extra SP cost isn't sustainable and isn't free on SLAs since sorcs have no real SLAs, feats are extremely tight, and you already have a double range spell (scorching ray) for the times when it's useful.  What is your build and feat list?  I'll give you a better suggestion.
  
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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #5 - Nov 26th, 2013 at 7:24pm
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I'd take Enlarge over most metamagic feats on shiradi wiz (but with the number of feats wiz has you don't have to choose). Double range missles are bonkers. Haven't built a serious sorc, so dunno about sorc.
  
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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #6 - Nov 26th, 2013 at 7:58pm
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Not worth it if you're not a wiz to use it on the sla chain missles,  it makes them take to much sp on the regular version imo.
  
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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #7 - Nov 26th, 2013 at 8:12pm
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Not worth it if you're not a wiz to use it on the sla chain missles,  it makes them take to much sp on the regular version imo.


Sometimes extra SP is worth it on normal missiles. A perch spot that's a ways away from a stationary boss, or a big room like FOT where you can kite the dragons and still work on Truthful or Reaver from halfway across the room.
  
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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #8 - Nov 26th, 2013 at 9:45pm
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for me its not worth i would not use it. the bit range more it not worth
  
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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #9 - Nov 27th, 2013 at 1:26am
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I'm taking it on my sorc. Fuck heighten.
  
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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #10 - Nov 27th, 2013 at 3:38am
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rest wrote on Nov 27th, 2013 at 1:26am:
I'm taking it on my sorc. Fuck heighten.


what's the split?
  
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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #11 - Nov 27th, 2013 at 3:49am
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cdr wrote on Nov 26th, 2013 at 8:12pm:
Sometimes extra SP is worth it on normal missiles. A perch spot that's a ways away from a stationary boss, or a big room like FOT where you can kite the dragons and still work on Truthful or Reaver from halfway across the room.


This! 100 times this!
  

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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #12 - Nov 27th, 2013 at 4:01am
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cdr wrote on Nov 26th, 2013 at 8:12pm:
Sometimes extra SP is worth it on normal missiles. A perch spot that's a ways away from a stationary boss, or a big room like FOT where you can kite the dragons and still work on Truthful or Reaver from halfway across the room.


I think it's better to kite the dragons into the rest of the party.
  
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AME2760
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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #13 - Nov 27th, 2013 at 8:32am
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AtomicMew wrote on Nov 26th, 2013 at 4:37pm:
It's not worth it on a sorc.  The extra SP cost isn't sustainable and isn't free on SLAs since sorcs have no real SLAs, feats are extremely tight, and you already have a double range spell (scorching ray) for the times when it's useful.  What is your build and feat list?  I'll give you a better suggestion.


I'm basically copying Rogann's Scorcher with some minor adjustments.  I went Bladeforged with a lesser LR to lose the 1 Paladin, and made a few enhancement changes to account for the Bladeforged enhancements. 

I was thinking of swapping Forced Escape in place of Elusive Target.  The 5% chance to negate damage might be nice damage mitigation, but I'm thinking getting CCed (in epic elites) can often be game over, and the ability to get out of that could be nice. 

My layout is here. 

18/2 Bladeforged Sorc/FvS

The other change is the feat swap for Enlarge, which I may end up swapping back to something else (force of personality or heighten maybe) if it turns out that I don't find it as useful/fun as I hope I will.

Props to Rogann for the original build, which looks awesome and fun.
« Last Edit: Nov 27th, 2013 at 8:32am by AME2760 »  

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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #14 - Nov 27th, 2013 at 10:47am
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AME2760 wrote on Nov 26th, 2013 at 2:50pm:
So I know that enlarge works on magic missiles and that as an arcane shiradi, spamming missiles is one of the more bread-and-buttery things going on.

Is the double range on the missiles useful enough to bother taking enlarge if you're doing a sorc or a multiclass where you don't get as many feats as in wizard?

Right now, I'm working up a build and am torn between force of personality and enlarge as an extra sort of "filler" feat. 

So anyone's that's used it with a Shiradi arcane... what are your thoughts?  Would it be worth trading something (such as saves) to pick it up to be able to be a better "missile sniper"?


I used it for the first time on a Shiradi build, it will only really be viable for your SLA's. If you can get your Int up decently high and depending on your split you might want to consider Heighten instead. Enlarge lets you play more FPS/arcade style immersion, which I value above nearly everything else in games. On my 16 Wiz I took Enlarge over Heighten, but I already had Extend, which is something else you may want to consider first, depending on your playstyle.
  
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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #15 - Nov 27th, 2013 at 7:07pm
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AME2760 wrote on Nov 27th, 2013 at 8:32am:
I'm basically copying Rogann's Scorcher with some minor adjustments.  I went Bladeforged with a lesser LR to lose the 1 Paladin, and made a few enhancement changes to account for the Bladeforged enhancements. 

I was thinking of swapping Forced Escape in place of Elusive Target.  The 5% chance to negate damage might be nice damage mitigation, but I'm thinking getting CCed (in epic elites) can often be game over, and the ability to get out of that could be nice. 

My layout is here. 

18/2 Bladeforged Sorc/FvS

The other change is the feat swap for Enlarge, which I may end up swapping back to something else (force of personality or heighten maybe) if it turns out that I don't find it as useful/fun as I hope I will.

Props to Rogann for the original build, which looks awesome and fun.


I wouldn't worry too much about getting CC'ed.  The 18/2 FvS split isn't really solo optimal to begin with without the paladin splash, and during solo, you really do have to worry about high damage ranged casters and failed fort saves too.  In a group, you should be dominant with regards to kill count.  So IMO play to that strength and max out your DPS for the shock and awe factor.  Take spellpower feats instead of forced escape (which honestly, I doubt even works properly). 

Rather than enlarge, take past life: wizard for the SLA.  You get free metas on it, and it pumps out 10 missiles, which makes it roughly 3x more damage than magic missile under shiradi.  It's quite strong.  You should also shouldn't be ignoring your DCs.  Quickened meteor swarm (which by the way, already has double range as well) should be one of your most used spells in a group.  If you don't have PL: wizard, SF: evocation is not a bad feat either.  Basically, +1 DC will add ~2% damage to meteor swarm.
  
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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #16 - Nov 27th, 2013 at 9:09pm
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tachyon wrote on Nov 27th, 2013 at 3:38am:
what's the split?


The only split a sorc shiradi would ever be: 18sorc/2fvs
  
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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #17 - Nov 27th, 2013 at 9:47pm
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rest wrote on Nov 27th, 2013 at 9:09pm:
The only split a sorc shiradi would ever be: 18sorc/2fvs

16 sorc/2 fvs/2 paladin (or monk)

Smiley
  
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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #18 - Nov 27th, 2013 at 10:18pm
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might as well just be a wizard at that point.
  
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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #19 - Nov 27th, 2013 at 10:50pm
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AtomicMew wrote on Nov 27th, 2013 at 9:47pm:
16 sorc/2 fvs/2 paladin (or monk)


No.


AtomicMew wrote on Nov 27th, 2013 at 9:47pm:
14 sorc/4 fvs/2 paladin (or monk)


Yes.


Smiley
  

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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #20 - Dec 2nd, 2013 at 10:58am
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Alex DeLarge wrote on Nov 27th, 2013 at 10:50pm:
No.



Yes.


Smiley


Is the 4 FvS for moar crit?

Also, now that I've been playing it a bit I was thinking of getting away from being fire savant and maybe going to another savant (air perhaps?). 

The main reason for taking fire was to boost scorching ray... however, without the knockdown immunity, something like air maybe seems a little less attractive as well.

If one went 14 sorc/4 fvs/2 pal what do you think the best setup for enhancements would be for soloing (edit - or does it even matter?  I suppose being in Shiradi, mm procs would still be bread and butter).
« Last Edit: Dec 2nd, 2013 at 10:59am by AME2760 »  

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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #21 - Dec 2nd, 2013 at 2:06pm
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Most people go fire (scorching ray)/air (wings, dot) or just fire. 

The idea behind 14/4/2 is intense faith 3/3 in the FvS tree.  But it doesn't work for sorc (does for wiz) because enhancements are too expensive on sorc.  You basically want minimum 36 in air (wings), 21 in fire, at least a few in warforged, which doesn't realistically allow you enough space for the 28 in FvS. 

So basically, I think the 16/2/2 split or perhaps a 15/3/2 split is better.  If you want to do the 14/4/2 split, you need to give up air and wings altogether.
  
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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #22 - Dec 2nd, 2013 at 2:39pm
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AME2760 wrote on Nov 26th, 2013 at 2:50pm:
So I know that enlarge works on magic missiles and that as an arcane shiradi, spamming missiles is one of the more bread-and-buttery things going on.

Is the double range on the missiles useful enough to bother taking enlarge if you're doing a sorc or a multiclass where you don't get as many feats as in wizard?

Right now, I'm working up a build and am torn between force of personality and enlarge as an extra sort of "filler" feat. 

So anyone's that's used it with a Shiradi arcane... what are your thoughts?  Would it be worth trading something (such as saves) to pick it up to be able to be a better "missile sniper"?

here's a question: do you plan on running we what goes up all the time?  If no don't get enlarge.  If yes then gnab the snipe feat and range the end boss like a mofo Smiley
  

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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #23 - Dec 2nd, 2013 at 3:13pm
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AtomicMew wrote on Dec 2nd, 2013 at 2:06pm:
Most people go fire (scorching ray)/air (wings, dot) or just fire. 

The idea behind 14/4/2 is intense faith 3/3 in the FvS tree.  But it doesn't work for sorc (does for wiz) because enhancements are too expensive on sorc.  You basically want minimum 36 in air (wings), 21 in fire, at least a few in warforged, which doesn't realistically allow you enough space for the 28 in FvS. 

So basically, I think the 16/2/2 split or perhaps a 15/3/2 split is better.  If you want to do the 14/4/2 split, you need to give up air and wings altogether. 


Mew:

Hmm... that's kind of what I was thinking.  I've put all my sorc points into fire... I haven't really felt gimped by not having wings/knockdown immunity.  I don't often die in EE (even when soloing) even if my completions are a bit slower than I'd like.  My main goals are having as high a DPS/Crit % as possible and I feel comfortable with my level of survivability thus far. 

My main spells have been (awaken weakness) Scorching Ray/MM/Ruin/Chain Missiles/Meteor Swarm. 

I know any change would cause me to lose Meteor Swarm and dropping more than 2 would lose Otto's (which I find really useful for survivability purposes).  I was thinking of 16/4 Sorc/FvS as another option.

For my build/playstyle it seems like dropping 2 sorc in place of 2 more fvs would be an increase in DPS other things notwithstanding. 

I am curious about one thing though... am I missing something on how folks try to get stacks of conduction up as fast as possible (presumably on non-trash)?

I didn't really see a great way to rotate in regular electric spells.  Alternating scorching ray and lightning bolt or something? Or is there a spell rotation revolving around fire/elc that I'm not savvy on?   I thought maybe Eladar's (or perhaps Shiradi Procs... sonic?) might be used? 

A further increase in 20% damage seems like it would be awesome if it could be leveraged while still spamming spells to keep the damage per second up... can it?  I'd be willing to alter my spell rotation/playstyle/enhancement selection some to take advantage of this if there's a viable way to do so, particularly if I've missed something fundamental.

  

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Re: Shiradi Arcane: Enlarge
Reply #24 - Dec 2nd, 2013 at 3:34pm
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4 fvs isn't a good idea even on wiz IMO. The skill point spend for T4 is just not worth it. Skeptical it'd be a good idea on sorc either.
  
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