majmalphunktion wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2014 at 11:53am:


I'm pretty sure that alot of the complaining from people comes from the Shadowfail experience and new Enhancement system.

After the first and very brief sneakpeek, input for the new Enhancement system came from only those players who pre-purchased the Shadowfail packages. Players who didn't buy the Shadowfail packages were pissed because arguably the most important part of build any toon was getting input from a very small number of players. This wasn't some minor part of the game. This wasn't an optional part of the game. The Enhancement system is a core part of the game that should have had as much input as possible put into it.

Now unbeknownest to the majority of the players who had no access to the Shadowfail Beta, the Devs ignored the input of players who participated. Besides the number of trees for MCs, there was very little changes with the Enhancement system. Minor tweaks were done here and there, but things that sucked continued to suck while things that were overpowered for a single build got nerfed into oblivion. What was already made was what players got.

There are still players in the game that blame the Shadowfail pre-purchasers for problems with the Enhancement system. Even though the complaints were things that were repeatedly flagged by players that participated.

So yes, I can see why there is some bitching about VIP getting early access with what happened last year being fresh in people's minds.

I agree, by all means let VIPs have early access to stuff* on LIVE servers, but testing has to be free fro all if you actually want feedback.

*Don't ever again pull crap like u14 and delay gamemaking/breaking features like destinies for over 3 months to the non vip/pre-purchasers, it separated your user base badly at the time

majmalphunktion wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2014 at 11:53am:

a week is a lot when it comes to testing things. i dont think lots of people will wait a week to be able to log in? and even if so, then all the VIPs tested it out already and wont bother to log in again. give VIPs shiny cool things on live servers; thats where the VIP bonusses belong to, not on the test servers. test servers are to test things, give feedback and all should have the same rights because subobtimal testing doesnt help you. you get the best results when you get lots of ppl to test it.

p.s. yes i am a vip.

majmalphunktion wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2014 at 11:53am:

If you really want to do something for VIPs, you could start with what was promised years ago. All content. Turbine's nickel and diming of their core customers is atrocious.

Eve seems to do well by giving people updates and expansions for payment of their monthly fee. I believe Guild Wars 2 is still offering biweekly content updates based on the original $60 purchase.

In 2009-2011, DDO targeted 5 updates a year, free for VIPs. Now what do VIPs get that F2P don't? Update 12 came out in November 2011 with the House C Challenges. Update 13 was F2P. Update 14 (MoTU) was an expansion. 15 was Druids Deep, 16 was High Road, 17 was Gianthold Redux, 18 was a mix of F2P and Shadowfail expansion, 19 was Shadowfail, and 20 was two F2P quests.

So Turbine has delivered only two new non-F2P packs for VIP in over two years, Druid's Deep and High Road. These weren't even terribly good adventure packs. Quite the change from Updates 1 through 11 which rolled out over a similar time period.

VIP hasn't looked like a good switch for premiums since forever.

As for the early access to Lama, you'd be insane to run Lama with anything other than a singular focus on what works best to get the input and feedback you need. If a smaller group of VIP players is easier to manage and gives you enough data, fine. Otherwise, running it as an olive branch (or fig leaf) for VIPs is counterproductive and harmful.

majmalphunktion wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2014 at 11:53am:


A typically stupid response.

If Turbine was at all serious about getting feedback early in the process they would be maximizing their potential testers not reducing them.  Nothing to do with VIP benefits.  Anyone who thinks that being a VIP to alpha test is a good deal would buy anything Turbine offered in the first place.

Barkabout wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2014 at 2:15am:


Wow...this is so not true. There were hundreds of changes directly from player feedback. Hundreds. This is the mythology that the fan base chooses to believe, because of the few with an axe to grind because their brilliant idea didn't make it in and we have decided --right or wrong--not to bait the trolls. It's like arguing religion there will be no winner. Cyr believes what he wants, no matter what data I show him, or what expertise in games I have for example.
Man...that people actually think this irks me. That beta pass over that 4 weeks was invaluable. Data was amazing. Devs used it. Did they blindly make all the changes that people posted from their armchairs...of course not. For very good reasons. Go read any of the disaster stories over the past 2 or 3 years of games (especially MMO's) that catered blindly to the vocal fanbase. Hint: They die pretty quickly. We need to have a much more...holistic view. This would be great for Barbs...but will break blah de blah. The matrix in this game is huge...easily bigger than any other MMO...maybe bigger than any RPG ever. That is was as right as it was at launch is fucking outstanding. What is it...2 billion combinations or some crazy number like that. Sometimes we need to make the right decision over the best one...if that makes any sense.
And to point out...participation was UP when it was exclusive not the usual baseline. So what am I supposed to do with that data? Ignore it?

majmalphunktion wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2014 at 3:45pm:


How did you isolate variables on that? Because you certainly didn't have access to 2 different populations that differed only in that one was told it was exclusive and one wasn't. So how much of that difference could be from a growing perception that testing and reporting was futile? Or a perception that what was being tested wasn't that important? And how can you even apply numbers observed on a preview server to a beta-test server, isn't user expectation different?

And when you say participation is up, do you mean in aggregate, or for all major sub-populations (i.e. are VIP and Premium both up by 20% when you make it exclusive, or are your VIP numbers double and your Premiums drop by 90%)?

I'd be happy to see VIPs get advanced access if it really did result in everybody getting more input, but it just feels like we are trying to kindle a new enthusiasm for a fresh start, and then immediately throwing a wet blanket of same old-same old on it.

Do you really think imposing a second class citizen designation on a group of your testers is going to make them contribute more, or are you saying the VIPs' opinions are more important to Turbine and getting them more involved is worth any cost?

EDIT: On re-reading, it sounds, even to me, like I'm saying you are wrong. What I'm trying to say is I'm having trouble seeing how that could be, and asking you to go into more detail on your past observations and explain how they relate to the current situation.

Weird - when the enhancement system came out I honestly didn't know a single person (that I play with - outside either forum) that liked it. After the player feedback and the revamp - while there were grumblings about some *specific* things in general everyone calmed down and was pleased with it.

Yes - it destroyed builds - I guess you are new to the game because it wasn't unique in that aspect - builds (and very popular ones) have been being destroyed by updates for as long as the game has been out. 

One of the most popular builds used to be based on stat draining weapons - whoops destroyed.

Then it was '6 levels of ranger' on every toon.  Whoops destroyed.

Then it was incredible levels of healing amp - whoops destroyed.

I honestly do feel sorry for you if you had a favorite build that doesn't work anymore - but join the fucking club - it doesn't make you a unique snowflake.
In fact at least *THIS* time they handed out +20 LR tokens to reset your toon (the very FIRST time they have ever done that - heck they wouldn't even reset the 'free' feat reset back before LR was an option on previous adjustments).

Cry moar.

Meursault wrote on Jan 24^th, 2014 at 8:24am:


Well it's only been about 6 months - so I'm still holding out on if this overall was a pointless waste of time for changes sake (how I feel about it overall - even though I don't mind the new enhancement system) - or if this new system will actually bring us new enhancement paths quickly - increasing us from 3 per class to more (etc.)

We already have a new arcane path - so the signs are good.

I don't honestly know the backend - was the old system such a pile of steaming crap that it couldn't be worked?  The only dev that seemed to be able to get it working was Eladrin and he moved with the speed of a snail stuck in pitch.  If that's the case and the only hope of fixing things was to recode the entire mess - fine I can live with that - it would have been nice if they had just explained that on the outset.

Now that things are settling down - I really think we need to see the third divine destiny hit - and some new enhancement paths/destinies on a regular basis - what's enough?  Dunno - but if the endgame is content (dungeons) + reincarnation the more that are available the more attractive the endgame is.  3.5 has a literal truckton of prestige classes and feats to choose from (and spells honestly) if these changes bring more of those choices to the game it just makes the meta game of building 'your perfect toon' more fun.

On that note - spells - it's way past time we get more spell options (especially on the higher end) so that it's a real effort to figure out your spell load instead of the same ones on each toon.

WHY THE FUCK AREN'T THERE MORE RACIAL PRESTIGES??

Halfling assassins, for one thing. 

Meursault wrote on Jan 24^th, 2014 at 8:24am:


I am really trying to be civil towards turbine of late. I will see if turbine has the ability of an average college level coder  to fix the double login issue. If they cannot fix even this little issue after this forum practically held their hand to point out the problems, then all hope is lost. Turbine either cannot do so due to lack of competent employee's or they dont care since despite what maj is saying over here.

Ckorik wrote on Jan 24^th, 2014 at 10:06am:


The game is actually genius in design. The problem we see now is that it was designed for low levels(1-10 iirc), to recreate the fun of tabletop d&d. Over the years, so many different devs have added and changed the game systems so much that it is the mess we now see. I am quite sure this game is a headache to keep expanding upon.

rest wrote on Jan 24^th, 2014 at 1:36pm:



/signed not so much halfing assasin but racial prestiges in general