Hathorian wrote on Feb 27^th, 2014 at 11:54am:

You are probably more cut out to be a lurker instead of a commenter here.

Under the premium model which DDO has offered since 2009, it's probably around $300 for all of the packs, $50-100 or so for shared bank, races, and classses, and another $50-150 for Shadowfail and MoTU. Add on character-specific items such as store bank and inventory slot and you're talking enough money to expect a substantial playtime into the future.

If I dropped $400 during a Steam sale, I'd have enough games to keep me going for quite a few years. I would have a reasonable expectation for them to be available to me in perpetuity, and absolutely expect them to be there for at least the next five years. There is no reason for anyone to expect a $400 expenditure on DDO as a premium player to be treated any differently.

Kimberlite wrote on Feb 27^th, 2014 at 12:33pm:

Yes.
I set my limit to 100 €  when I joined shortly after f2p, still didn't cross that.
You prolly want packs, some races maybe, shared bank.
You certainly don't need cosmetics, inv/ bank space or all that shit. Buy stuff on sale.

Unless you want everything right NOW, then you prolly better go vip.

Meursault wrote on Feb 27^th, 2014 at 1:46pm:


Yeah, I've only really thought about it from a VIP perspective. I maybe play about 120 hrs per month give or take so VIP is a no-brainer for me. I get all content for about 8 cents per hour of entertainment. Lol. Where else can you get entertainment for about 8 cents an hour? Movies are about $5-$10 per hour. Restaurants are about $50 per hour. Sporting events or concerts are probably close to that. Going to a bar or night club (don't do much of that anymore)...maybe $20 per hour? Cable tv...well....that really depends on the number of people in your family and how much they watch tv but it is typically $ per hour as opposed to cents per hour.

Extra bells and whistles cost more which is fine and is my choice. The thing I don't agree with is that expansion packs aren't free for VIP. That is BS but I don't get too worked up over it.

I have trouble imaging being so poor that I can't afford $10 per month..... I am sure that some are but most aren't. Subscriptions can be cancelled at any time so I guess what I am trying to say is if you are VIP rather than premium I don't see it as an investment. $10 per month goes into the entertainment budget. It comes down to how much you play and if you enjoy playing though. If you are taking a break then it definitely makes sense not wanting to spend any money.

Hathorian wrote on Feb 27^th, 2014 at 12:42pm:


I've played since about May 2010 with a few one to two month breaks. Never been VIP. I own all the permanent content except Half-orc.  When I play, it's about 2-4 hours a day.  I bought both expansions, but not the collector's editions or extra super bonus crap.  I would guess I've spent ~$300 over the years on points and the xpacks. 

I've been on a break from the game since the beginning of the year, just burned out.  I'm sure I'll give it another whirl in a few weeks.  I mostly feel as though I've got my money's worth over the years.  When the game dies, I'll move on, but not likely to any other MMO or subscription-type game.  Maybe I'll even accomplish something with my life.

rest wrote on Feb 27^th, 2014 at 2:32pm:

I think it is less about sunk costs than it is about efforts to minimize the lifecycle costs. My biggest sunk cost on DDO would be the time I spent leveling characters, which is probably worth far more than the money.

I kept my overall expenditure lower than VIP over time, and have everything except Shadowfail. I don't fret too much over squeezing even more value out of what I spent in the past as I had enough fun from 2009-2012 to justify the expenditure.

If I completely walk away from DDO (and I've already spent most of the time since April 2013 not playing DDO), my biggest regret is not going to be over how much I spent, but it will be over how badly the game was mismanaged by Turbine - ie, I will only stupidly regret something over which I had zero control. If the game somehow gets turned around, I will do even better on the lifecycle aspect, but I've already had my money's worth.

Lifecycle costs are the biggest difference between VIP and premium, just like leasing versus purchasing. Leasing makes more sense in the short term. At this point in the game, there might not be a long term left, and I would have difficulty recommending the premium route anymore.

Meursault wrote on Feb 27^th, 2014 at 3:06pm:


Yes they do. Everyone is in a different situation and to each his own. If you each average 5 hours per week that is about 20 hours per month each for a total of 100 man hours per month. If you had 5 VIP accounts that would be about 50 cents per hour of entertainment.

But...how much more enjoyable would it be for your family if you were all VIP (or even had 1 VIP account)? None, some, a lot?

Hathorian wrote on Feb 27^th, 2014 at 4:39pm:

Yeah $0.50/hour isn't terrible - it beats a movie or going out to dinner - but it's not great either. It's a much better value to buy a console game for $50 or 10 used DVDs at $5 each.

DDO would be a much better value for me if there was a higher enjoyment per hour factor - failing a quest because the client lags or the boss gets stuck in a wall is hugely frustrating, comparable perhaps to buying a DVD and having it skip and go unplayable on the last 5 minutes. I've only had that happen once or twice, and I got my money back. In DDO it happens fairly often.

I also resent the time I spend managing all the crafting systems, the tight inventory, and re-learning things like enhancements or how new loot works. That isn't fun, and it takes away from my rare and precious play time. That stuff doesn't affect the price, but it certainly lowers the value.

So would I enjoy the game more if I had VIP? Yeah, a bit. The longer logout timer would be nice, and opening higher difficulties on a first life (at 10 hours a week, I don't have any 2nd life characters), but I can't think of anything else I'd really gain. I already have way more TP than I use because I've tried to pay for my entertainment so the 500 per month isn't very meaningful. What else do VIPs get? I own a ton of content I've never played even once, I own character races and classes I've never played.

What would make me enjoy the game more is stability and bug fixes.

Meursault wrote on Feb 27^th, 2014 at 1:46pm:



The movie analogy doesn't fit because it's more a DVD,blue-ray analogy there. You pay around 5-15$ for an adventure pack, right?
Each adventure pack has a story and quests to entertain you. If you really try to enjoy and explore an adventure pack the most packs lead you through a story for at least one hour.
It's like an interactive movie or book you could buy. I don't see why you think they wouldn't hold the movie/dvd/book analogy.

If you have fun and enjoy the story the first playthrough of the adventure is well worth the money compared to other entertainment offers in the real world. At least it returned enough 'profit' to be a good investment.
And on top, whenever you want to read/play the story again you can do so, like with a DVD/blue-ray or video.

Longevity of the game for adventure packs is only needed if you are aiming for the items they offer. But the items are more like bonus content, even if the items are often the main reason to decide which adv pack to buy next.
But especially VoN... this is one of the few raids which are still run regularly, at least on Orien. And in my opinion VoN is by far the best raid in DDO, I really like the velah raid mechanic.
It's even more fun with a raid group which is not able to beat it down with pure dps and needs to use some kind of tactic to beat her (not standing in the fire breath and killing eggs for several rounds).

And stat tomes... they have an immediate impact on your build increasing the fun you can have with your toon. One life from 1-20 or even 28 should be enough to justify the investment.

So longevity is only needed if you have to buy that many packs and stuff that you would have to pay 100$ or more and don't want a net investment of more than 10$ a month. Because otherwise it would have been better to go VIP.

But especially the adventure packs can be seen as buying a story and entertainment for at least one hour. It's practically the same as going to a movie or buying a video/book. And after that time they offer a lot of bonus content(items, replaying).

Bill Z Bubb wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 12:10pm:


It's a letter directed at alumni of a drama program, highlighting her gaming experience would not be a priority in that context.

However in her letter to the forums she states
Quote:


Which tells me several things

-She is a 10 year veteran of the gaming industry working on at least 3 MMO's
-She has been playing DDO since 2006 despite only being with Turbine for 3 years.
-She is a table top gamer and LARP'er.

It's called speaking to your audience, when she was speaking to Drama alumni she talks up one aspect of her life, when speaking to DDO gamers she talks up that aspect of her life.

I have no idea how she will do as Exec Producer, but looking at her linkedIn profile tells you a lot more about her qualifications than her letter to her old drama school schoolmates

Bill Z Bubb wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 12:10pm:


Sounds perfect for the Vault. 

SwashbucklerHater wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 9:20am:


Actually, I was responding to Hathorian, who had said "go to a movie" not "buy a movie on DVD". And the big difference between "buy a movie" and "rent a movie" or "go see a movie" is how long you have access to the movie. Well, "go see a movie" has the added benefits of better sound system and bigger screen, but we are talking about how longevity affects value.

And the market has clearly shown people find value in the extended access, otherwise either renting a movie and buying a movie would cost the same, or nobody would buy movies, neither of which is true.

So I guess we could quibble about the diminishing returns of longer and longer access, but there is no question longevity adds value. And the fact that we're having this discussion proves that it has different value for different people, and that's cool too!

So by all means, enjoy yourself, buy what you want, it's your money!

Conversely, if I tell you I'm not spending any more on the game because the apparent lower longevity has reduced the value I perceive, don't sweat it, it's my money.

I'm not screaming for my money back, I'm not accusing them of stealing from me, or even accusing them of dealing in bad faith. I'm calmly explaining how their actions have influenced mine. That's good data for any company smart enough to use it. And by "use it" I don't mean "do what I want" I mean "weigh the costs and benefits and make an informed decision".

EDIT: And in case you missed it earlier, I'm a very casual player, leveling a character from 1-20 takes me YEARS, and I don't have any characters at 24, nevermind 28! So while you might squeeze a "full use" of a tome out in a month or two, I need much more time to get the same value out of that purchase. I agree that DDO is a great value for people who play DDO 30 hours a week, but that's not their entire customer base.

Bill Z Bubb wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 12:10pm:


She has over a decade in MMO's two or 3 of them on this game, a couple on my favorite MMO ever, and yes she plays. She doesn't like spotlight that is why you don't know her.
If you looked me up you would see all sorts of weird shit- Television, regular software,Coach,lead designer of a digital non-linear editor, NCAA sports...but I too have 10000 hours in this game stuff. No one over 30 in this industry has a 'game degree' we all came from elsewhere. If you think that all our collective experiences don't have any input into creating experiences...that is when you end up with "dry ass game number 17". Trust me I pull on film processes all the time. Personally I rather have developers and testers that are not 'uber gamerz' and have some real education in psych, philosophy, lit, and other liberal arts. I've hired a mechanic, a librarian, a submarine driver, a sound engineer, a pilot and game degree kids. No one that admits their favorite art is game art, or they only listen to game music. No one who has no other hobbies. Just like film you need to experience life to make good art. For example nothing makes me groan more than having to explain J. Campbell to a budding designer of videogames..at least I have a videohttp://youtu.be/yZxs_jGN7Pg to explain it with puppets.

Also - what's your favourite MMO ever?

SWTOR?