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EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted (Read 5985 times)

Barba Korthos Resident Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 47 Joined: Feb 5^th, 2014	EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Mar 17^th, 2014 at 12:38pm	Print Post
	I responded to a thread on the loot in Deathwyrm today. Ishr (council member, achievement thread curator) had posted the following (paraphrased) "the devs have stated in multiple places that there would no difference in loot across difficulties in order to encourage players to run EN" I quoted him on this and asked him to link a source. Both comments deleted within five minutes by a mod, leading me to think this was a player council thread discussion that he leaked. I'd be furious if I found out devs thought the community needed and incentive to run EN, and it seems that this has been covered away from prying eyes. I'm quite aware that with the exception of scale drop rates the devs have clearly decided that all players merit the same chance of phlogistons etc so yes there has been a design decision to keep things on a similar par, I just thought this merited sharing.
	« Last Edit: Mar 17^th, 2014 at 12:54pm by Barba »

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Flav Vault Frog Offline One Frog to Rule them All! Posts: 9984 Location: Land of the Frogs Joined: Aug 29^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #1 - Mar 17^th, 2014 at 2:22pm	Print Post
	Well since I have had several posts Cubed in the various Akamai Thread Purges it should be obvious by now to everybody that being a PC Member doesn't give us any protected status. Now on the topic... There is no incentive to run EN at all... since EH is the New Normal. And since they don't want to get rid of the Retarded Streak and go back to an underlevel bonus there is all the incentive in the world to run quests as hard as possible. Loot is just a side effect of running quests... As for the source : SolarDawning wrote on Feb 5^th, 2014 at 7:59pm: Other stuff: Now that I'm gone, the difficulty-based loot has been discontinued. No more different items on Epic Normal/Hard/Elite. I was told it over-rewarded Elite play. Can't say I agree. Page 6 of the Plume de Soleil thread here in the Vault. Which makes it quite obvious as to why it was cubed.
	« Last Edit: Mar 17^th, 2014 at 2:31pm by Flav »
	Yes my avatar is an Hermine eating a Greenland Lemming for brunch.
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Realism51 Korthos Resident Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 74 Joined: Mar 14^th, 2014	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #2 - Mar 17^th, 2014 at 2:33pm	Print Post
	Is this turbine speak for oh god we killed the new raids with incurable lag and douche baggery? Lets just make a top raid that hits harder than anything, raise it about ten levels, through in some lag, bunch of puzzles that lag and some instant alert that never goes away from respawning lag monsters. Oh, we cant forget to include the bug out 8/10 times. There we go - working perfect now


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higgildypiggildy Stormreaver Piker Offline I just mock the world Posts: 660 Joined: Dec 8^th, 2011	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #3 - Mar 17^th, 2014 at 2:44pm	Print Post
	I really liked the EN, EH, EE loot. I though it was brilliant. Except, I wish it could be in one item that I could click to have it at the relevant level. so the 1 inventory slot could contain 3 versions and I'd use the one I wanted.

	I ain't got no mothafukkinsignature
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Munkenmo Epic Poster Online Posts: 4343 Location: A land under down under Joined: Nov 10^th, 2010	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #4 - Mar 17^th, 2014 at 2:58pm	Print Post
	higgildypiggildy wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 2:44pm: I really liked the EN, EH, EE loot. I though it was brilliant. I hated the system, Items should have been identical in all things other than min level. EE should have had the lowest level, and EN should have been +2 EE level. Atleast if the loot was the same players like me wouldn't write it off as trash. As a power gamer I had 0 reason to join any EH or EN group for loot before, and I had bravery streaks often discouraging me.. Bravery and staggered loot systems co-existing are bad.

	So you want to know about an exploit? PM Epoch For Details. Or, in case you don't already know, OnePercenter controls the Exploits Board. Lastly, if you're truly desperate, Vendui Tells Everyone
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Meursault Horoluth Raider Offline I Love Freedom of Speech Posts: 2410 Location: Hartford, CT; USA Joined: Aug 22^nd, 2013 Gender:	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #5 - Mar 17^th, 2014 at 3:22pm	Print Post
	Munkenmo wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 2:58pm: EE should have had the lowest level, and EN should have been +2 EE level. Why? Aren't the people most able to handle EE the people who least need the gear at lower levels? Wouldn't it make more sense to make the ML the same for all (and make it between the minimum level to accept the quest and the level of the quest itself) and make the EE gear have better stats or better drop rate? What mechanic or interaction makes ML a more powerful draw than item power or drop rate? This is an honest question though I can't figure out how to make it read that way�

	Turdbin, keep changing the DDO rules, because McDonalds sold over 200 billion hamburgers by changing the recipe for their Special Sauce every couple of months to keep interest up.
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NOTpopejubal Epic Poster Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 4096 Location: Let go or get dragged. Joined: Apr 17^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #6 - Mar 17^th, 2014 at 3:26pm	Print Post
	Barba wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 12:38pm: I responded to a thread on the loot in Deathwyrm today. Ishr (council member, achievement thread curator) had posted the following (paraphrased) "the devs have stated in multiple places that there would no difference in loot across difficulties in order to encourage players to run EN" I quoted him on this and asked him to link a source. Both comments deleted within five minutes by a mod, leading me to think this was a player council thread discussion that he leaked. I'd be furious if I found out devs thought the community needed and incentive to run EN, and it seems that this has been covered away from prying eyes. I'm quite aware that with the exception of scale drop rates the devs have clearly decided that all players merit the same chance of phlogistons etc so yes there has been a design decision to keep things on a similar par, I just thought this merited sharing. My guess for the part I highlighted in red: Multiple places = in the Player Council board and when FoS posted (after he left Turbine) on the Vault.


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Barba Korthos Resident Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 47 Joined: Feb 5^th, 2014	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #7 - Mar 17^th, 2014 at 4:17pm	Print Post
	Yup im gona have a look back over FoS' posts tonight - seems this idea was marginalised. Re: your comments Flav, I do see loot as incentive, the "piece of cheese" if you will. It's subjective and selfish but I prefer my EE Stilton to be smellier than another man's EN Stilton - and was quite happy for that to mean a slightly decreased ML alone. It's game design that dictates whether it is indeed a side product or an incentive, and the devs have come down in favour of the former. I am quite happy with what EE yields: I get more scales, but I do think that if there is a conscious developer plan to normalise loot across the difficulties then it's worthy of player comment and criticism.
	« Last Edit: Mar 17^th, 2014 at 4:45pm by Barba »

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Munkenmo Epic Poster Online Posts: 4343 Location: A land under down under Joined: Nov 10^th, 2010	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #8 - Mar 17^th, 2014 at 4:29pm	Print Post
	Meursault wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 3:22pm: What mechanic or interaction makes ML a more powerful draw than item power or drop rate? This is an honest question though I can't figure out how to make it read that way ETR'ing, and running content underlevel. Meursault wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 3:22pm: Why? Aren't the people most able to handle EE the people who least need the gear at lower levels? This logic could also equate, people who Run EE are less likely to need the best permutations of EE gear. I think one of the worst things to happen to DDO loot was the en/eh/ee systems.
	« Last Edit: Mar 17^th, 2014 at 4:31pm by Munkenmo »
	So you want to know about an exploit? PM Epoch For Details. Or, in case you don't already know, OnePercenter controls the Exploits Board. Lastly, if you're truly desperate, Vendui Tells Everyone
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KilgoreTrout Dragon Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 214 Joined: Mar 17^th, 2014	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #9 - Mar 17^th, 2014 at 4:39pm	Print Post
	I liked the EN/EH/EE systems. You reward the players who play at higher difficulties, and since they play at higher difficulties they get better equipment to help them beat the more powerful mobs.


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Osharan Tregarth Horoluth Raider Offline I'm an ass... Deal with it. Posts: 2663 Location: Fresno Joined: Aug 23^rd, 2011 Gender:	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #10 - Mar 17^th, 2014 at 6:53pm	Print Post
	Munkenmo wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 4:29pm: ETR'ing, and running content underlevel. This logic could also equate, people who Run EE are less likely to need the best permutations of EE gear. I think one of the worst things to happen to DDO loot was the en/eh/ee systems. The system wouldn't bother me, if there was an upgrade path of some kind. Trading 3 EN versions gets you an EH version, etc.

	I'm the 'sharans(Osharan, Asharan, Osharina, Asharina, etc.) And Epoxy.� And Notverysexy. Dovie'andi se tovya sagain
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Terebinthia Horoluth Raider Offline All your cupcakes are belong to me! :D Posts: 2499 Joined: Jan 6^th, 2011	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #11 - Mar 17^th, 2014 at 7:52pm	Print Post
	Osharan Tregarth wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 6:53pm: The system wouldn't bother me, if there was an upgrade path of some kind. Trading 3 EN versions gets you an EH version, etc. I think that's where I was as well. Would have prevented me fishing for a certain level of Wall of Wood, lets people play slowly and get what they want, but rewards higher end players through faster rewards. I realise it would have not been so lucrative on the AS AH, but it would be a better design


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NOTpopejubal Epic Poster Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 4096 Location: Let go or get dragged. Joined: Apr 17^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #12 - Mar 17^th, 2014 at 9:51pm	Print Post
	I like the idea behind EN/EH/EE gear. I like that it has tiers of power. I like that it rewards EE play. I don't like that it makes the inventory mini-game even more bothersome than it already is (and that mini-game is already pretty bad in DDO). I am glad they did EN/EH/EE and I'd be happy to see it stay, but the inventory irritation makes me okay with seeing it go.


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NOTSunnyshadow Out of Order Offline Kobold remember waterworks! Posts: 2193 Joined: Jan 24^th, 2014	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #13 - Mar 18^th, 2014 at 2:26am	Print Post
	I see the problem Flav is talking about. These difficulties split up the masses, making it more difficult to form up groups. The bravery streak (which Flav is against), has become a near-must have for a lot of people. Personally, I like the bravery bonus and the loot variety from difficulty settings. The brave (and skilled) get rewarded, whilst the brave (yet underpowered) get to waste time. It encourages play at "own-level-of-play" quests. However, there will always be Stoddards who think they can do much more than they actually can. So... I guess I'd have to agree with Flav. Bravery bonus, as it is presently, should be changed as to encourage awesome playing whilst not making it an absolute must. The difficulty settings variety loot was good when it was in effect - because it let me use stuff at different levels - but currently needs a revamp. Like making it into tiers or something, like the cannith challenge gear and cove gear. Normal drops tier 1, hard drops tier 1 and chance to drop tier 2, elite drops tiers and 2 and also has a chance to drop tier 3. I'm a genius.

	En taro Tassadar!
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Flav Vault Frog Offline One Frog to Rule them All! Posts: 9984 Location: Land of the Frogs Joined: Aug 29^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #14 - Mar 18^th, 2014 at 3:49am	Print Post
	NOTSunnyshadow wrote on Mar 18^th, 2014 at 2:26am: The brave (and skilled) get rewarded, whilst the brave (yet underpowered) get to waste time. . There is no bravery at doing a quest two level below your level on Elite. Try doing Madstone with a party of LVL 7/8 characters ( or Crucible ) or say try to do Bastion with a bunch of LVL 13/14.. That would be brave to pull it out even on Normal.

	Yes my avatar is an Hermine eating a Greenland Lemming for brunch.
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qweeve DQ Assaulter Offline Posts: 463 Location: Pa Joined: Nov 18^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #15 - Mar 18^th, 2014 at 3:52am	Print Post
	With as much trouble as they have just keeping the game running, you want them to change/fix stuff? Good luck with that.


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NOTSunnyshadow Out of Order Offline Kobold remember waterworks! Posts: 2193 Joined: Jan 24^th, 2014	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #16 - Mar 18^th, 2014 at 4:10am	Print Post
	Flav wrote on Mar 18^th, 2014 at 3:49am: There is no bravery at doing a quest two level below your level on Elite. Try doing Madstone with a party of LVL 7/8 characters ( or Crucible ) or say try to do Bastion with a bunch of LVL 13/14.. That would be brave to pull it out even on Normal. Which is why bravery should be modified, like I said =)

	En taro Tassadar!
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Zandos Waterworks Kobold Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 145 Joined: Feb 26^th, 2014	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #17 - Mar 18^th, 2014 at 6:31pm	Print Post
	Flav wrote on Mar 18^th, 2014 at 3:49am: There is no bravery at doing a quest two level below your level on Elite. Try doing Madstone with a party of LVL 7/8 characters ( or Crucible ) or say try to do Bastion with a bunch of LVL 13/14.. That would be brave to pull it out even on Normal. If devs would remove bravery and reintroduce underlevel bonus, I'm sure masses of noobs would try to enter vale quests at lvl5, and then flood forums with whining and nerf demands.


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Rasczak Stormreaver Piker Offline Instant Human...Just Add Coffee Posts: 668 Location: South, Way South Joined: Oct 4^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #18 - Mar 19^th, 2014 at 2:54am	Print Post
	Still not sure why they got rid of the underlevel bonus.


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NOTSunnyshadow Out of Order Offline Kobold remember waterworks! Posts: 2193 Joined: Jan 24^th, 2014	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #19 - Mar 19^th, 2014 at 2:57am	Print Post
	Rasczak wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 2:54am: Still not sure why they got rid of the underlevel bonus. Because it shows how over-powered some of us are.

	En taro Tassadar!
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Rasczak Stormreaver Piker Offline Instant Human...Just Add Coffee Posts: 668 Location: South, Way South Joined: Oct 4^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #20 - Mar 19^th, 2014 at 3:10am	Print Post
	NOTSunnyshadow wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 2:57am: Because it shows how over-powered some of us are. Yup, the days when we were using greensteel and Titan gear


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NOTSunnyshadow Out of Order Offline Kobold remember waterworks! Posts: 2193 Joined: Jan 24^th, 2014	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #21 - Mar 19^th, 2014 at 3:16am	Print Post
	Rasczak wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 3:10am: Yup, the days when we were using greensteel and Titan gear I still use greensteel... Even at epic levels.

	En taro Tassadar!
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Flav Vault Frog Offline One Frog to Rule them All! Posts: 9984 Location: Land of the Frogs Joined: Aug 29^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #22 - Mar 19^th, 2014 at 3:47am	Print Post
	Rasczak wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 2:54am: Still not sure why they got rid of the underlevel bonus. Because at that time the norm, once you were out of the lower harbor was to zerg Waterworks for market entrance, and then you joined the Redwillow, Gwylan, Stormcleave, Korromar, VON train. ( each done with 3/4 levels difference, so you ended in VON by LVL 5/6 ) They couldn't just let people do that, since it meant that ended farming Co6 and Southern to reach cap. They hated the fact that we were doing quests way beyond our level, and the whiny mass hated those that could pull it out and wanted an easy button. Thus the bravery bonus ( which is not brave at all ) and the retarded streak ( to compensate for the removal of the underlevel bonus... ). More people are able to pull the BB and the L33t streak than people were able to pull the full underlevel bonus. But the sad part is that the stupid streak has 3 discrete level : No Streak, Hard Streak, l33t streak and you have to keep it up, while the old underlevel bonus had 5 level : no bonus, 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50% and could be chosen for each and every quest.

	Yes my avatar is an Hermine eating a Greenland Lemming for brunch.
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NOTSunnyshadow Out of Order Offline Kobold remember waterworks! Posts: 2193 Joined: Jan 24^th, 2014	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #23 - Mar 19^th, 2014 at 3:56am	Print Post
	Flav wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 3:47am: Because at that time the norm, once you were out of the lower harbor was to zerg Waterworks for market entrance, and then you joined the Redwillow, Gwylan, Stormcleave, Korromar, VON train. ( each done with 3/4 levels difference, so you ended in VON by LVL 5/6 ) They couldn't just let people do that, since it meant that ended farming Co6 and Southern to reach cap. They hated the fact that we were doing quests way beyond our level, and the whiny mass hated those that could pull it out and wanted an easy button. Thus the bravery bonus ( which is not brave at all ) and the retarded streak ( to compensate for the removal of the underlevel bonus... ). More people are able to pull the BB and the L33t streak than people were able to pull the full underlevel bonus. But the sad part is that the stupid streak has 3 discrete level : No Streak, Hard Streak, l33t streak and you have to keep it up, while the old underlevel bonus had 5 level : no bonus, 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50% and could be chosen for each and every quest. To be fair, Running with the Devils was much, much easier back then.

	En taro Tassadar!
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Alex DeLarge Epic Poster Offline Get ready for some of the 'ol in-out, in-out Posts: 3481 Location: Foggy Albion Joined: May 11^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: EN Dev Incentive and the PC comments deleted Reply #24 - Mar 19^th, 2014 at 4:10am	Print Post
	Flav wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 3:47am: Because at that time the norm, once you were out of the lower harbor was to zerg Waterworks for market entrance, and then you joined the Redwillow, Gwylan, Stormcleave, Korromar, VON train. ( each done with 3/4 levels difference, so you ended in VON by LVL 5/6 ) They couldn't just let people do that, since it meant that ended farming Co6 and Southern to reach cap. They hated the fact that we were doing quests way beyond our level, and the whiny mass hated those that could pull it out and wanted an easy button. Thus the bravery bonus ( which is not brave at all ) and the retarded streak ( to compensate for the removal of the underlevel bonus... ). More people are able to pull the BB and the L33t streak than people were able to pull the full underlevel bonus. But the sad part is that the stupid streak has 3 discrete level : No Streak, Hard Streak, l33t streak and you have to keep it up, while the old underlevel bonus had 5 level : no bonus, 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50% and could be chosen for each and every quest. Elite Favor requirement trumps all retarded streaks/ non-streaks/ under-level/ upper-level/ mid-level/ bullshit/ non-bullshit bonuses to xp.


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