Vault › General › DDO-Specific Discussion › PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
(Moderator: Strakeln)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 75 Replies) PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers) (Read 29142 times)
Meat-Head
53%Moron57%Misunderstood
*
Offline


Why am I reading crap
on this forum?

Posts: 12345
Location: Oregon
Joined: Dec 5th, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #25 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 7:53pm
Print Post  
Wipe wrote on Mar 19th, 2014 at 7:35pm:
Hmm not sure about higher base damage there Meat.
Point blank is 1 [W]
Combat archery 1[W]
Dance of flowers 1.5[W]

Now Pinion base is 2.5[7]    6[7] = 42
Magic farted base   4.5[4.5] 8[4.5]=36
I think, please don't get mad at me at 1 am


Why not include IMP MA for another .5

adds 4w

6.5[7]=45.5
8.5[4.5]=38.25

You add all that in, and Pinion will be over.

BUT, you still get 5% paralyze and 5% chance to half hitpoints on a mob. That's really hard to calculate.. Then again, it only works on trash, so maybe we should go with a dmg proc on that tier..
  
A half-dozen boss Vaulties donated generously with real money to my classroom during a fundraiser in May 2015 to get poor kids books to read. I won't forget that. They know who they are, and they freaking rule.

Disavowed wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 1:51pm:
Once you meat your personal goal you might want to give that some consideration.

Artorias wrote on Feb 10th, 2016 at 2:15pm:
Good grief Meat, you're hopeless. You would label the simple act of taking a shit as someone obeying the divine law of nature to leave a proof of existence.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Meat-Head
53%Moron57%Misunderstood
*
Offline


Why am I reading crap
on this forum?

Posts: 12345
Location: Oregon
Joined: Dec 5th, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #26 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 7:54pm
Print Post  
Meli wrote on Mar 19th, 2014 at 7:39pm:
So a lot of new mobs have fort therefore pinion ahead still?




No no. Pinion relies more on crits for its damage. That's affected much more by fort.

Wyrm relies more on secondary procs.
  
A half-dozen boss Vaulties donated generously with real money to my classroom during a fundraiser in May 2015 to get poor kids books to read. I won't forget that. They know who they are, and they freaking rule.

Disavowed wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 1:51pm:
Once you meat your personal goal you might want to give that some consideration.

Artorias wrote on Feb 10th, 2016 at 2:15pm:
Good grief Meat, you're hopeless. You would label the simple act of taking a shit as someone obeying the divine law of nature to leave a proof of existence.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Wipe
VoD Slasher
*****
Offline



Posts: 1917
Joined: Mar 26th, 2012
Gender: Male
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #27 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 8:05pm
Print Post  
There are plenty of old mobs and bosses with lots of fort too.
Precision, upgraded black, acid arrows if someone else uses shock ones, grim precision for raids ( heck even for normal questing ).
If anything Wyrm bow with Dragon edge has 15 % advantage there, 70 % fort bypass is no joke, when fort makes a difference between 300 and 10k arrow

I think 4 dmg and 15 prr is still pretty big deal.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Meli
Titan Demolisher
****
Offline



Posts: 397
Joined: Jan 30th, 2014
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #28 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 8:08pm
Print Post  
K thanks. It will be a long time before I get the bow but good to evaluate it Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Meat-Head
53%Moron57%Misunderstood
*
Offline


Why am I reading crap
on this forum?

Posts: 12345
Location: Oregon
Joined: Dec 5th, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #29 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 8:15pm
Print Post  
UPDATED WITH MOAR STUFFS  (all the "w" we can get from feats AND a dmg proc over a paralyze proc for Wyrm)


---------------------
PINION
Base: 6.5[2d6]=45.5avg
+
DMG Modifer: 60
+
Crits:20% of the time it crits for X5 which means (45.5base+60dmgmod+10seeker)X5=507.5-45.5+60=X.2(20% of the time)=94.4 avg dmg per hit
+
Wailing (3d6 sonic) =10.5 avg dmg per hit


TOTAL =45.5+60+94.4+10.5=210.4 avg dmg per hit assuming 0% fortification.




WYRM BOW


Base: 8.5[1d8]=38.25
+
Dmg Modifier 64(wep enh is 4 higher on Wyrm bow than Pinion)
+
Crits 10% of the time for X5 which means (38.25base+64dmgmod+10seeker)X5=516.25-base38.25+64dmgmod=423.0X.1=45.9 avg dmg per hit added to base

+
1st Degree Burns (applies vulnerability, but I'm not adding that even though it's good) 15 avg FIRE dmg
+
Wrath of shadows=304*.05(5%proc)*.95(95% they'll save)*.5(when they save, it'll be for half)=14.44+(304*.05*.05=0.76 added for the 5% of the time they DON'T save for half)=
+15.2 negative dmg
+
Mortal fear 36 avg dmg (NOT counting the proc to half a mobs HPS)
+
Acid Augment for dmg (why not, there's extra slots) 5.5 dmg avg

TOTAL=38.25+64+45.9+15+36+15.2+5.5=219.85 avg dmg per hit


Conclusion: Wyrm bow includes a 4.7% Increase in avg damage over Pinion NOT COUNTING the proc that cuts mobs hps in half proc, OR the colorless slot.



Downside, you now have to slot seeker 10


« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2014 at 8:16pm by Meat-Head »  
A half-dozen boss Vaulties donated generously with real money to my classroom during a fundraiser in May 2015 to get poor kids books to read. I won't forget that. They know who they are, and they freaking rule.

Disavowed wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 1:51pm:
Once you meat your personal goal you might want to give that some consideration.

Artorias wrote on Feb 10th, 2016 at 2:15pm:
Good grief Meat, you're hopeless. You would label the simple act of taking a shit as someone obeying the divine law of nature to leave a proof of existence.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Meat-Head
53%Moron57%Misunderstood
*
Offline


Why am I reading crap
on this forum?

Posts: 12345
Location: Oregon
Joined: Dec 5th, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #30 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 8:18pm
Print Post  
Wipe wrote on Mar 19th, 2014 at 8:05pm:
I think 4 dmg and 15 prr is still pretty big deal.



Fair point here.

This pretty much makes it a choice between

15PRR
v.s.
better on trash (cut HPS in half proc) +better on high fort mobs+a colorless slot+ability to slot something else for a trinket
« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2014 at 8:21pm by Meat-Head »  
A half-dozen boss Vaulties donated generously with real money to my classroom during a fundraiser in May 2015 to get poor kids books to read. I won't forget that. They know who they are, and they freaking rule.

Disavowed wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 1:51pm:
Once you meat your personal goal you might want to give that some consideration.

Artorias wrote on Feb 10th, 2016 at 2:15pm:
Good grief Meat, you're hopeless. You would label the simple act of taking a shit as someone obeying the divine law of nature to leave a proof of existence.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Daze
Stormreaver Piker
*
Offline


I Love Drama! I do ...
I really do.

Posts: 647
Joined: Mar 19th, 2014
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #31 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 9:00pm
Print Post  
Pinion
((2.5[2d6]+8)x16)x1.2 = 489.6

((2.5[2d6]+8)x3x4)x1.2 = 367.2

856.8+((4x16)+(4x3x4) for planar prowess trinket) = 968.8 (+ dmg for str modifier with 50 str on extra crit(20x3x2x1.05-40)) = 1054.8+20 for stat modifier with 20% alacrity factored = 1074.8

252+1074.8 = 1,326.8

vs

Thunder forged
((4.5[1d8]+11)x18)x1.15 = 646.875

((4.5[1d8]+11)x3x2)x1.15 = 215.625

862.5+402.5 = 1,265


Haste from blinding speed or haste guard proc is 22% to ranged alacrity .. the spell or potion is 15. taking the worst case scenario against thunder forged makes it marginally better if you account for a DPS tier 2 effect. Removing haste or alacrity considerations would also cause the dmg modifiers to cancel out with the exception of during the crits and would swing the total more into Pinion's favor. I also took the lest dmging tier 1 proc for the dunder forged, 1st degree burns. Touch of flames or shadow would put it in the lead but only slightly.

The above numbers are total damage over 20 shots (assuming hit on a 1 with avg of the dmg roll for each hit)

Anyway you slice it .. it's barely an upgrade and not worth the cloud imho unless you take the bane effect into account .. then the dunder forged bow makes a good dragon kiter but considering you had to kill a dragon to get it ... I'm thinking it's unnecessary. (didn't stop me from making one, all the same I'll keep pinion around a while longer)
« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2014 at 9:39pm by Daze »  
   
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Meli
Titan Demolisher
****
Offline



Posts: 397
Joined: Jan 30th, 2014
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #32 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 9:15pm
Print Post  
20 shots so one for each dice? I guess we're dealing with absolutes here. Interesting to see how you calculate it.

Also why the assumption to hit on a one?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Shadehater
Dropbear Awareness Society
*
Offline


Smite Stupid!

Posts: 2174
Joined: May 6th, 2012
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #33 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 9:17pm
Print Post  
You still keep not adding the same damage augment or the +4 from trinket...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rest
One Man Wolfpack
*
Offline



Posts: 7223
Joined: Aug 13th, 2010
Gender: Male
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #34 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 9:29pm
Print Post  
Hmm could have sworn that haste gave 22% ranged speed, but I just checked in game and that is not the case. Weird.

My apologies for being incorrect.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Daze
Stormreaver Piker
*
Offline


I Love Drama! I do ...
I really do.

Posts: 647
Joined: Mar 19th, 2014
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #35 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 9:36pm
Print Post  
Meli wrote on Mar 19th, 2014 at 9:15pm:
20 shots so one for each dice? I guess we're dealing with absolutes here. Interesting to see how you calculate it. yes one for each dice

Also why the assumption to hit on a one? ease of calculation ... missing on a 1 doesn't change the numbers much I don't think (maths below)


((2.5[2d6]+8)x15)x1.2 = 459

((2.5[2d6]+8)x3x4)x1.2 = 367.2

826.2+((4x15)+(4x3x4) for planar prowess trinket) = 934.2 (+ dmg for str modifier with 50 str on extra crit(20x3x2x1.05-40)) = 1020.2+19 for stat modifier with 20% alacrity factored = 1039.2

252+1039.2 =
1,291.2


vs

Thunder forged

((4.5[1d8]+11)x17)x1.15 = 610.9375

((4.5[1d8]+11)x3x2)x1.15 = 215.625

826.6+402.5 =
1229.1


Similar results. Glad you asked the question though. Found a math error >.<

keep in mind the more +[w] you add and the more modifier you add the worse dunder forged gets due to Pinion's crit profile and slightly extra alacrity (which cancels out with blinding speed)
« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2014 at 9:41pm by Daze »  
   
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Daze
Stormreaver Piker
*
Offline


I Love Drama! I do ...
I really do.

Posts: 647
Joined: Mar 19th, 2014
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #36 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 9:42pm
Print Post  
rest wrote on Mar 19th, 2014 at 9:29pm:
Hmm could have sworn that haste gave 22% ranged speed, but I just checked in game and that is not the case. Weird.

My apologies for being incorrect.


It surprised me too when I tested it.
  
   
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lemming
Waterworks Kobold
**
Offline



Posts: 122
Joined: Mar 15th, 2014
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #37 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 10:04pm
Print Post  
I am really not good at math but I was running around and pewpewing with the new bow (tier 2) for the past three days and I always switched back to pinion like after 3 minutes. Thunder bow is just meh.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NOTSunnyshadow
Out of Order
*
Offline


Kobold remember waterworks!

Posts: 2193
Joined: Jan 24th, 2014
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #38 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 10:06pm
Print Post  
Why can't Pinion get its own red augment damage slotted in? Even in Meat-Head's maybe faulty calculations, if you factor in a similar augment in the damage, the bows would be just about even.
  
En taro Tassadar!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NOTpopejubal
Epic Poster
*****
Offline


I Love Drama!

Posts: 4096
Location: Let go or get dragged.
Joined: Apr 17th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #39 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 10:20pm
Print Post  
Daze wrote on Mar 19th, 2014 at 9:00pm:
Pinion with 20% alacrity factored = 1074.8


How much extra speed does 20% alacrity actually give?  If you take a 2 minute timer, how many shots do you get with Pinion compared to a Silver Bow with no Haste and compared to a Silver Bow with Haste running?

I'll do some testing when I get some time, but I don't think it will be tonight.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Wham
Korthos Resident
*
Offline


I Love Drama!

Posts: 37
Joined: Jul 28th, 2013
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #40 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 11:08pm
Print Post  
I think the answer is "I can't be buggered to log in and waste time getting this since I already have Pinion and am enjoying the crap out of Rifts, SWTOR, Conan and 50 other F2P games more."
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Meat-Head
53%Moron57%Misunderstood
*
Offline


Why am I reading crap
on this forum?

Posts: 12345
Location: Oregon
Joined: Dec 5th, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #41 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 11:22pm
Print Post  
NOTSunnyshadow wrote on Mar 19th, 2014 at 10:06pm:
Why can't Pinion get its own red augment damage slotted in? Even in Meat-Head's maybe faulty calculations, if you factor in a similar augment in the damage, the bows would be just about even.




For the love of Pete...

PINION HAS ONE RED SLOT.

WYRM HAS TWO.

WYRM WILL ALWAYS BE ONE DMG AUG AHEAD.

You silly goose.
  
A half-dozen boss Vaulties donated generously with real money to my classroom during a fundraiser in May 2015 to get poor kids books to read. I won't forget that. They know who they are, and they freaking rule.

Disavowed wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 1:51pm:
Once you meat your personal goal you might want to give that some consideration.

Artorias wrote on Feb 10th, 2016 at 2:15pm:
Good grief Meat, you're hopeless. You would label the simple act of taking a shit as someone obeying the divine law of nature to leave a proof of existence.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Meat-Head
53%Moron57%Misunderstood
*
Offline


Why am I reading crap
on this forum?

Posts: 12345
Location: Oregon
Joined: Dec 5th, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #42 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 11:24pm
Print Post  
Lemming wrote on Mar 19th, 2014 at 10:04pm:
I am really not good at math but I was running around and pewpewing with the new bow (tier 2) for the past three days and I always switched back to pinion like after 3 minutes. Thunder bow is just meh.



The best proc is tier 3... So....
  
A half-dozen boss Vaulties donated generously with real money to my classroom during a fundraiser in May 2015 to get poor kids books to read. I won't forget that. They know who they are, and they freaking rule.

Disavowed wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 1:51pm:
Once you meat your personal goal you might want to give that some consideration.

Artorias wrote on Feb 10th, 2016 at 2:15pm:
Good grief Meat, you're hopeless. You would label the simple act of taking a shit as someone obeying the divine law of nature to leave a proof of existence.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Daze
Stormreaver Piker
*
Offline


I Love Drama! I do ...
I really do.

Posts: 647
Joined: Mar 19th, 2014
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #43 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 11:43pm
Print Post  
NOTpopejubal wrote on Mar 19th, 2014 at 10:20pm:
How much extra speed does 20% alacrity actually give?  If you take a 2 minute timer, how many shots do you get with Pinion compared to a Silver Bow with no Haste and compared to a Silver Bow with Haste running?

I'll do some testing when I get some time, but I don't think it will be tonight.


Using blinding speed the alacrity factoring cancels out but for those that don't take it ... multiply by 1.2 for a 20% alacrity or 1.15 for 15%. That is how I factored it in the equations. As for the dmg modification I just went with a basic 50 str/dex (whatever you use for dmg mod). Every 2 points after that would increase pinions margin by 2.1 total.

I know that ranged weapons do not get the full amount of the speed increase. There's something about haste not effecting the draw or the reload etc etc but the purposes of comparing 2 bows it is irrelevant as the detractors are identical.
  
   
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Daze
Stormreaver Piker
*
Offline


I Love Drama! I do ...
I really do.

Posts: 647
Joined: Mar 19th, 2014
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #44 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 11:52pm
Print Post  
the only way one of these dunder forged bows gets 2 red slots is if you use the tier 2 upgrade to get a purple. At that point it does squeak by the Pinion (depending on your augs) ... just not by that much.

tier 3 adds a colorless and most of the procs on tier 3 are worse than slotting a ruby eye in a lvl 28 weapon with the exception of mortal fear (36 avg per hit force dmg + chance to halve HP's? yes please) at that point ... yea it beats Pinion hands down and that isn't considering the extra enhancement bonus (+12)

Until then ... pinion it is.
« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2014 at 11:56pm by Daze »  
   
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
harharharhar
Epic Poster
*****
Offline


Girthless Trolllicker

Posts: 3421
Joined: Aug 31st, 2012
Gender: Male
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #45 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 11:54pm
Print Post  
news bows are better.

Haste is 20% Ranged speed, from Effects in game: "Enhancement modifier to Ranged Attack Speed: +20%"

Blinding Speed at level 27 is +22% increase to ranged attack speed (Also Enhancement Bonus)

20% Alacrity on Pinion is the same as new "of Speed", and Haste, and Blinding Speed. They are all Enhancements bonuses.

Gilvanors Set is a +10% Competance bonus to Ranged Attack speed, and stacks with Haste/Alacrity/Blinding Speed.

Pinion is 2% slower than Blinding Speed.

« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2014 at 11:58pm by harharharhar »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Daze
Stormreaver Piker
*
Offline


I Love Drama! I do ...
I really do.

Posts: 647
Joined: Mar 19th, 2014
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #46 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 11:57pm
Print Post  
harharharhar wrote on Mar 19th, 2014 at 11:54pm:
news bows are better.

Haste is 20% Ranged speed, from Effects in game: "Enhancement modifier to Ranged Attack Speed: +20%"

Blinding Speed at level 27 is +22% increase to ranged attack speed.

Gilvanors Set is a +10% Competance bonus to Ranged Attack speed, and stacks with Haste/Alacrity (also enhancements)/Blinding Speed.

Pinion is 2% slower than Blinding Speed.



right ... but then BOTH bows would be at 22% so the haste just cancels out.

((2.5[2d6]+8)x15) = 382.5

((2.5[2d6]+8)x3x4) = 306

688.5+((4x15)+(4x3x4) for planar prowess trinket) = 796.5 (+ dmg for str modifier with 50 str on extra crit(20x3x2-40)) = 876.5


199.5+876.5 =
1,076


vs

Thunder forged

((4.5[1d8]+11)x17) = 531.25

((4.5[1d8]+11)x3x2) = 187.5

718.75+332.5 =
1,051.25
« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2014 at 12:06am by Daze »  
   
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
harharharhar
Epic Poster
*****
Offline


Girthless Trolllicker

Posts: 3421
Joined: Aug 31st, 2012
Gender: Male
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #47 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 11:59pm
Print Post  
Daze wrote on Mar 19th, 2014 at 11:57pm:
right ... but then BOTH bows would be at 22% so the haste just cancels out.


The new bows are better (or at least a VERY compelling alternative/Addition), but separately, my post was about Attack Speed and stacking.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rest
One Man Wolfpack
*
Offline



Posts: 7223
Joined: Aug 13th, 2010
Gender: Male
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #48 - Mar 20th, 2014 at 12:01am
Print Post  
Daze wrote on Mar 19th, 2014 at 11:52pm:
the only way one of these dunder forged bows gets 2 red slots is if you use the tier 2 upgrade to get a purple. At that point it does squeak by the Pinion (depending on your augs) ... just not by that much.

tier 3 adds a colorless and most of the procs on tier 3 are worse than slotting a ruby eye in a lvl 28 weapon with the exception of mortal fear (36 avg per hit force dmg + chance to halve HP's? yes please) at that point ... yea it beats Pinion hands down and that isn't considering the extra enhancement bonus (+12)

Until then ... pinion it is.


Do the bows count as two handed weapons for the purpose of getting a red slot at tier 2?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Daze
Stormreaver Piker
*
Offline


I Love Drama! I do ...
I really do.

Posts: 647
Joined: Mar 19th, 2014
Re: PSA For bow users (aka Monkchers)
Reply #49 - Mar 20th, 2014 at 12:07am
Print Post  
rest wrote on Mar 20th, 2014 at 12:01am:
Do the bows count as two handed weapons for the purpose of getting a red slot at tier 2?


No ... have to use the tier 2 upgrade to get the second offensive augment slot
  
   
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 
Send TopicPrint
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

Vault » Powered by YaBB 2.6.11!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2024. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge