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Very Hot Topic (More than 75 Replies) Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta (Read 26725 times)
Revaulting
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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #100 - Oct 11th, 2014 at 11:07am
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Hiding wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 5:53am:
I guess either of these would allow players to simply save up their mats from low levels and then, boom, item finished. You could get around that by making lower level items a lot cheaper, with higher level ones very expensive (and maybe even tiering the universal loot, such that some mats are only available at high levels) - and the quantity of mats being handed out varies by quest level (higher equals more).

Instead of forward-compatible like you're suggesting, they should make all new crafting systems backwards-compatible. So if we preferred, for example, we could use ingots to make dragonscale armor, or cannith gear. Or allow us to trade phlogiston for blank greensteel shards. That way, we get integration, but there's no crafting new gear with old mats.

Edit: Plus, the devs keep getting to add "created new crafting system" to their resumes.
« Last Edit: Oct 11th, 2014 at 11:08am by Revaulting »  

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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #101 - Oct 11th, 2014 at 10:10pm
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Revaulting wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 11:07am:
Instead of forward-compatible like you're suggesting, they should make all new crafting systems backwards-compatible. So if we preferred, for example, we could use ingots to make dragonscale armor, or cannith gear. Or allow us to trade phlogiston for blank greensteel shards. That way, we get integration, but there's no crafting new gear with old mats.

Edit: Plus, the devs keep getting to add "created new crafting system" to their resumes.


Brilliant. Well done!

I think that the end-game raids should all be compatible, too. But your idea is definitely better than my previous one.
  
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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #102 - Oct 12th, 2014 at 3:30am
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Revaulting wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 11:07am:
Instead of forward-compatible like you're suggesting, they should make all new crafting systems backwards-compatible. So if we preferred, for example, we could use ingots to make dragonscale armor, or cannith gear. Or allow us to trade phlogiston for blank greensteel shards. That way, we get integration, but there's no crafting new gear with old mats.

Edit: Plus, the devs keep getting to add "created new crafting system" to their resumes.


How many phlogs for an eSoS shard?
  

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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #103 - Oct 12th, 2014 at 8:22am
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5 Foot Step wrote on Oct 12th, 2014 at 3:30am:
How many phlogs for an eSoS shard?

All it really takes would be one  Wink
  

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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #104 - Oct 13th, 2014 at 1:38am
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Revaulting wrote on Oct 12th, 2014 at 8:22am:
All it really takes would be one  Wink


...and that's why we'll never get that system.  Tongue
  

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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #105 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 3:54am
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Viktor Vaughn wrote on Oct 7th, 2014 at 2:28pm:
There is no new saga with necro in u23?
Lol, way to kill epic pack before it was even released.


yeah no shit man.. do they even think some of this through..? i nominate viktor and shadehater for PC. bc obviously the ones there fucking hate us.
  
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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #106 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 4:55am
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hikari shinji wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 3:54am:
yeah no shit man.. do they even think some of this through..? i nominate viktor and shadehater for PC. bc obviously the ones there fucking hate us.


Or the PC have absolutely no say in the matters as has been explained before.
The PC are a focus group - they give opinions which are listened to if the devs like it, and ignored otherwise, because those Turdbine devs know everything (based on there numerous past successes, how could they think otherwise?) - much more than their representative customer sample group.

Changing the PC will achieve nothing.
I think they'll struggle to even find 30 volunteers next year, once the current lot start speaking out.  If you feel so strongly about, get on the PC next year and find out first hand.
  
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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #107 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:16am
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DropBear wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 4:55am:
Or the PC have absolutely no say in the matters as has been explained before.
The PC are a focus group - they give opinions which are listened to if the devs like it, and ignored otherwise, because those Turdbine devs know everything (based on there numerous past successes, how could they think otherwise?) - much more than their representative customer sample group.

Changing the PC will achieve nothing.
I think they'll struggle to even find 30 volunteers next year, once the current lot start speaking out.  If you feel so strongly about, get on the PC next year and find out first hand.



there has to be an easier way to get a larger viewpoint across to the devs. it seems we are basically represented like a wierd democracy. and there would need to be a way to filter out the opinions that werent thought out as viable. bc obviously alot of people love this game and would like to see it succeed further. and maybe set a few standards for the genre. corporate capitalistic failings aside, is there yet hope for ddo?
  
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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #108 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:22am
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Devs dont play the game.
No other reason why they dont know wtf they are doing.
  
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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #109 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:26am
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hikari shinji wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 3:54am:
yeah no shit man.. do they even think some of this through..? i nominate viktor and shadehater for PC. bc obviously the ones there fucking hate us.



As if we had any say in term of choices like Saga or not Saga... Shinji Kun.

To give you an idea this is what we were given as choice for Orchard :

- Werewolves or not  Werewolves ?
- The Named items to comment ( they were revised 4 times before going to Lamania Forum )
- The backstory of the raid. ( note : not the raid mechanism, just the story that goes with the raid )
- Oh and the Paladin stuff.

Tell me where Saga comes into play here ?

Once again, we are a panel that gets to give feedback on things shown us.
But Turbine does as they wish... if they want to force feed the game with something about which we said : Hell No! they can do it, and we have absolutely no power to force them to stop it.

Since you've taken such a nice sockpuppet name Shinji Kun, you must know how it is to be powerless in front of events/things.

As for nominating people to the PC, they don't get nominated : But people can apply, since this year PC tenure ends in 2 Months, there's going to be a new round soon.

  

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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #110 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:32am
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Flav wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:26am:
As if we had any say in term of choices like Saga or not Saga... Shinji Kun.

To give you an idea this is what we were given as choice for Orchard :

- Werewolves or not  Werewolves ?
- The Named items to comment ( they were revised 4 times before going to Lamania Forum )
- The backstory of the raid. ( note : not the raid mechanism, just the story that goes with the raid )
- Oh and the Paladin stuff.

Tell me where Saga comes into play here ?

Once again, we are a panel that gets to give feedback on things shown us.
But Turbine does as they wish... if they want to force feed the game with something about which we said : Hell No! they can do it, and we have absolutely no power to force them to stop it.

Since you've taken such a nice sockpuppet name Shinji Kun, you must know how it is to be powerless in front of events/things.

As for nominating people to the PC, they don't get nominated : But people can apply, since this year PC tenure ends in 2 Months, there's going to be a new round soon.


finally an actual intelligent response. you get how i chose my moniker bc you actually watched or have read about evangelion. pretty heavy shit i still cant wrap my head around. As for your "input" as allowed: that seriously sounds like an exalted figurehead for the PR and CS dept to copy paste on resumes'. i wish i could help out for ideas but sadly i dont think i am unbiased enough to not start beating the shit out of them when they start talking about changing mechanics that have been there for years. hope the PC for the next few years has a greater impact on making the game better.
  
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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #111 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:36am
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Flav wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:26am:
As if we had any say in term of choices like Saga or not Saga... Shinji Kun.

To give you an idea this is what we were given as choice for Orchard :

- Werewolves or not  Werewolves ?
- The Named items to comment ( they were revised 4 times before going to Lamania Forum )
- The backstory of the raid. ( note : not the raid mechanism, just the story that goes with the raid )
- Oh and the Paladin stuff.

Tell me where Saga comes into play here ?

Once again, we are a panel that gets to give feedback on things shown us.
But Turbine does as they wish... if they want to force feed the game with something about which we said : Hell No! they can do it, and we have absolutely no power to force them to stop it.

Since you've taken such a nice sockpuppet name Shinji Kun, you must know how it is to be powerless in front of events/things.

As for nominating people to the PC, they don't get nominated : But people can apply, since this year PC tenure ends in 2 Months, there's going to be a new round soon.




One thing I love reading about this Flav, you actually see how it is. ML was exactly the same

This is why I push so hard for Lamm. Then everyone can see how it is.
  
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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #112 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:36am
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hikari shinji wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:32am:
Once again, we are a panel that gets to give feedback on things shown us.
But Turbine does as they wish... if they want to force feed the game with something about which we said : Hell No! they can do it, and we have absolutely no power to force them to stop it.

yeah i have no idea how alot of that works behind the scenes nor do i really wish to. kinda ruins the fun to start talking business and money when im trying to have fun. im just here to play, what happens along the way is just ddo history that we are all now a part of. welcome to nerv.
  
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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #113 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:38am
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Meli wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:36am:
One thing I love reading about this Flav, you actually see how it is. ML was exactly the same

This is why I push so hard for Lamm. Then everyone can see how it is.


haha thats when the char copy IS working and you dont get any errors loading the client. THEN you can play on lamm. sorry i cant beta test a game for someone for free then pay them to play it when they release it as a post alpha pre beta phase even worse than what was tested.
  
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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #114 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:44am
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hikari shinji wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:38am:

haha thats when the char copy IS working and you dont get any errors loading the client. THEN you can play on lamm. sorry i cant beta test a game for someone for free then pay them to play it when they release it as a post alpha pre beta phase even worse than what was tested.


there is that too. i mainly meant when the devs post stuff about 'what do you think' and you tell them what you think... and then... well... yeah i guess sometimes it's good yah?
  
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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #115 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:48am
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hikari shinji wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:32am:
you get how i chose my moniker bc you actually watched or have read about evangelion. pretty heavy shit i still cant wrap my head around.

[snip]

hope the PC for the next few years has a greater impact on making the game better.



It's not hard, once upon a time Eva was The Anime everybody a bit in that knew about.


Don't get your hope too high... Actually don't gets any hope... That would be more in character with your sockpuppet, because we tried very hard to push for changes...

as I stated somewhere, we tried to get them to work on a coherent, revamped rebuild all encompassing crafting system based on Greensteel/Cannith and Alchemical....
And they pulled the rug under us by adding Thundergorged... yet another new and completely unrelated system...

This is just one of the multiple examples we tried to push.
  

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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #116 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:49am
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Meli wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:44am:
there is that too. i mainly meant when the devs post stuff about 'what do you think' and you tell them what you think... and then... well... yeah i guess sometimes it's good yah?


that may be so, and all well and good. however if we are debating the effectiveness of the PC from what i can see of what they were given a chance to input on.. its a joke
  
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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #117 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:52am
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Flav wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:48am:
It's not hard, once upon a time Eva was The Anime everybody a bit in that knew about.


Don't get your hope too high... Actually don't gets any hope... That would be more in character with your sockpuppet, because we tried very hard to push for changes...

as I stated somewhere, we tried to get them to work on a coherent, revamped rebuild all encompassing crafting system based on Greensteel/Cannith and Alchemical....
And they pulled the rug under us by adding Thundergorged... yet another new and completely unrelated system...

This is just one of the multiple examples we tried to push.

you can hope in one hand...
the combined system idea is genius, but would never work because of "legacy" coding right? or am i wrong there?
  
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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #118 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:54am
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Flav wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:48am:
[snip]


damnit, well played  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #119 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:55am
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hikari shinji wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:16am:
there has to be an easier way to get a larger viewpoint across to the devs. it seems we are basically represented like a wierd democracy. and there would need to be a way to filter out the opinions that werent thought out as viable. bc obviously alot of people love this game and would like to see it succeed further. and maybe set a few standards for the genre. corporate capitalistic failings aside, is there yet hope for ddo?


The PC concept is a good one.
As I have always said, it depends on how it is implemented.
Unfortunately, they don't report to a Producer - they report to the lowest member in the DDO food chain, the incompetent community manager who likely filters out any dissension or comments that might hurt dev feelings.

So feedback is given as:
"That's great, but here a few problems I see with the proposal...."
Here's what the devs likely see:
"That's great!"

If you get a representative sample of players, you are going to get differing opinions - which is great if you are capable of making decisions.
For those who are not and hide in corporate structures, you hire a bunch of grads and "yes-people" and then every decision you make is popular and no-one ever tells you something did not work.

They need to see balanced arguments around concepts and major changes - not the fucking back story to a raid. 9/10's of the players couldn't give a toss.  Yet the actual raid itself and how it works - critical to its success is kept away from the PC.
The Turdbine team are muppets - by association if not direct involvement.  They have an amazingly loyal and motivated gamer base who would do almost anything to improve the game they love, and they don't use it.  When the community make a quiet respectful protest, the Community mgr mocks them - what an idiot, and then she gets promoted.

They treat all of us like stupid marks - the Fernando mentality permeates throughout the orgn.

Yes they're a business - I understand that.  But engaging with a loyal player base need not be mutually exclusive with profitability.
And when you need to make unpopular changes (nerfs), if you have the support of most of the player base, they will grumble but understand if you explain it honestly!

Turdbine do nothing right when it comes to customers and community. From what I see on the outside and hear from inside, I've never seen a worse run orgn and the only reason they survive is they jagged some good IP.  Hardly a recipe for success.
  
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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #120 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:58am
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hikari shinji wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:49am:
that may be so, and all well and good. however if we are debating the effectiveness of the PC from what i can see of what they were given a chance to input on.. its a joke



... carefully makes no comment...


as Flav said though for some things the PC are not asked or they're ignored. same as when it was with ML. this is why i am in favour of systems development stuff going directly to the Lamm forums - in fact when they were telling us what the differences between ML and the PC was going to be this is what I understood was going to happen.
  
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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #121 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 7:06am
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Flav wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:48am:
as I stated somewhere, we tried to get them to work on a coherent, revamped rebuild all encompassing crafting system based on Greensteel/Cannith and Alchemical....
And they pulled the rug under us by adding Thundergorged... yet another new and completely unrelated system...

This is just one of the multiple examples we tried to push.

Because the orgn is dysfunctional.
Individuals are allowed to pursue personal agendas (their CV's) at the expense of the game.
The only Dev I see working coherently appears to be Sev who seems to want to unify and simplify various systems which could have many benefits to future expandability as well as server loads.
But who knows, maybe that's for his CV too.

What should be happening is a Producer to take pride in the system and begin tidying up the legacy stuff and inject new life into the game.  Content yeah - but get the systems sorted out and crafting could be an important part of the game for many players.

Instead, we have a rolling replacement schedule of Producers who can't cope or don't care as they update their CV's.
The devs are given free rein to do whatever they like and who gives a stuff what the player response is? They won't be around to deal with it.

There is no sign of coherent structure to all the changes - no clear plan if you will.  Lots of changes just seem haphazard.
I'd like to think the class enhancements were structured and planned, but even that is iffy.

For awhile, I think some of us thought MajMal might make a difference as Producer, but that was a short lived disappointment.
  
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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #122 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 7:18am
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DropBear wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:55am:
The PC concept is a good one.
As I have always said, it depends on how it is implemented.
Unfortunately, they don't report to a Producer - they report to the lowest member in the DDO food chain, the incompetent community manager who likely filters out any dissension or comments that might hurt dev feelings.


Actually no... Cordovan do not filter what we say.

We report directly to the relevant Dev : Vargouille, Severlin, and so on...

The dev make a post, we comment, eventually starts bickering between each othe'r because we do not agree... The dev, makes some changes, we comment again...


DropBear wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:55am:
So feedback is given as:
"That's great, but here a few problems I see with the proposal...."
Here's what the devs likely see:
"That's great!"


If the comment is an unanimous that's great, the idea gets fasttracked to Lammania Forum... That's how you saw the Healing Amp so fast or the Mirror of Glamering.
If the comment is an unanimous Hell No!!, and if after several round of tweaking it' still a hell no, the idea is eventually dropped, or put on backburners.
( Hint for next year PC : I hope you'll have access to our posts, if you do, please spend time reading the threads started by Devs, so that you know which ideas we rejected... in case they try to push them through you in hope that you will agree [ Yup, I trust Turbine to try that trick on some of them ] )

If the comment is in between, the idea gets discussed, tweaked, modified, discussed again, modified again,... and eventually it gets put on Lammania forum to see what the rest of the community think of it.

DropBear wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:55am:
If you get a representative sample of players, you are going to get differing opinions - which is great if you are capable of making decisions.
For those who are not and hide in corporate structures, you hire a bunch of grads and "yes-people" and then every decision you make is popular and no-one ever tells you something did not work.

They need to see balanced arguments around concepts and major changes - not the fucking back story to a raid. 9/10's of the players couldn't give a toss.  Yet the actual raid itself and how it works - critical to its success is kept away from the PC.
The Turdbine team are muppets - by association if not direct involvement.  They have an amazingly loyal and motivated gamer base who would do almost anything to improve the game they love, and they don't use it.  When the community make a quiet respectful protest, the Community mgr mocks them - what an idiot, and then she gets promoted.

They treat all of us like stupid marks - the http://www.ddovault.com/Images/Fernando4.png mentality permeates throughout the orgn.


Yes, that's probably what htey don't get... compared to other games the community is dedicated...

DropBear wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:55am:
Yes they're a business - I understand that.  But engaging with a loyal player base need not be mutually exclusive with profitability.
And when you need to make unpopular changes (nerfs), if you have the support of most of the player base, they will grumble but understand if you explain it honestly!

Turdbine do nothing right when it comes to customers and community. From what I see on the outside and hear from inside, I've never seen a worse run orgn and the only reason they survive is they jagged some good IP.  Hardly a recipe for success.


The problem, as I see it is twofold :
- First Warner Bros don't care about DDO, they clearly bought Turbine for the LoTRO licence and the way it consolidated all the loTRO licence they have.
  DDO just came along... So they are not interested in the game, as long as it does not cost money.
- Second, Turbine is tied by how the game was (not )marketed originally thorugh Atari... They don't have much wiggling room after the various court settlements and if htey want to keep the game running, they have to avoid loosing money on it.

Add to that that it's a 9 year old game... And that during that time the gaming planet has evolved a lot...

  

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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #123 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 8:04am
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hikari shinji wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:52am:
the combined system idea is genius, but would never work because of "legacy" coding right? or am i wrong there?

Nothing needs to be as complicated as integrating crafting systems. Just add a trade-in to the next new crafting thing they pull out of their asses. That trade-in can let you "downgrade" the new ings, colls, what-have-you, into ings from the previous system. Ask whatever exorbitant trade price they want. Done.

If they want to get fancy, allow a trade-in for even older ings. No need to touch the old crafting interfaces.

Leave special stuff like shards of power, and greensteel & alchemical blanks alone. That stuff is clearly too complicated for their puny dev brains to fathom.
  

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Re: Tinfoil hat: the reason new items are bta
Reply #124 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 8:09am
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Flav wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 7:18am:
The problem, as I see it is twofold :
- First Warner Bros don't care about DDO, they clearly bought Turbine for the LoTRO licence and the way it consolidated all the loTRO licence they have.
  DDO just came along... So they are not interested in the game, as long as it does not cost money.

Sometimes, being a quiet competent achiever is an advantage - while the star child gets a lot of focus (in corporate terms -this means lots of head office interference).  If you can make modest returns with reasonable resources, you should have more autonomy because of it.
I don't presume to know WB's M.O. or the pressures Turdbine mgmt are under, but I don't get the direction they're heading in and what that means for DDO.

Flav wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 7:18am:
- Second, Turbine is tied by how the game was (not )marketed originally thorugh Atari... They don't have much wiggling room after the various court settlements and if htey want to keep the game running, they have to avoid loosing money on it.


I don't know what the terms of those settlements were as I lost interest in the game during that phase of its life, but they can access new content (such as Anauroch) from Hasbro/WOTC.  Would just like to see them keep adding some life to the game whilst tackling what they can on the QOL issues.
Sure, once DDO reaches cap at 30 and sits there for a few years - it will take something special to keep it alive.

Flav wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 7:18am:
Add to that that it's a 9 year old game... And that during that time the gaming planet has evolved a lot...


Sure, other games have evolved into being quite generic following the tried and true formula of short term success....

DDO still after all these years offers things that differentiate it from the rest of the market.  It can do this because it is a niche game.
However, being niche means your prospective market is smaller so you better market well (failed) and look after those customers you do have (failed) to maximize your chances of success.

You know, I think some of the latest DDO content shows the engine is fine.  I'm not playing it to bring my Vid card to a grinding halt - I want to have immersion, and the recent content (Underdark/Stormhorns) is a tribute to the visual capabilities of the engine.
Supporting the back end engine could be a risk - particularly if they keep cutting resources.  I suspect soon they won't be able to make changes soon.

Not much point having lots of chiefs, but no peons.  Maybe they should flush the middle mgmt and go for a flatter structure?
  
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