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Hot Topic (More than 35 Replies) DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea? (Read 11448 times)
noamineo
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DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Jan 28th, 2015 at 1:03pm
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[Fill in the blank MMO] 2 is always a giant flop.

Going all the way back to Ultima Online 2
Or EverQuest 2(which is still around but failed to gain much market share from EQ1 players)

How about the nice, steaming pile from Turdbine, Ashron's Call 2?

Meanwhile

Ultima Online
EverQuest
Ashron's Call

Are still going strong, with much of the original player-base. UO even introduced a new engine to UO 1 in 2007, proving that you CAN upgrade an MMO's engine if you try hard enough.

MMO sequels always flop. No thoroughly-established player wants to start over again in a new version of an old game. Its what keeps us from switching to new games in the first place.

Think about it: would prettier graphics and some vaguely different quests really be enough to make you throw away your entire account, all your characters, all gear? Everything you've worked for(or "worked" for in some of our cases Tongue), out the window.

All for a whole "new" game that will, on release, be just as buggy, exploitable, and terrible as the old one?

And, to top it all off, we know DDO2 would suck for a myraid of other unrelated reasons, even if they did all of the code and art perfectly(PvP is all the rage these days, how much would DDO suck if that was a thing?)

So, seriously, why do so many people(here and on the motherboards) act like DDO2 will be anything other than abject failure and pixelated misery?
  

I'll never understand the propensity of people to brag about being good at a video game. Its a toy you play with for fun. The only person who should be proud of you is your mother. If you're 3.
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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #1 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 1:07pm
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cause it could actually clean all the shit what old code expanded by each generation of coders without proper knowledge of previous code brings.

if they would manage keep player databases and even same current game system functionality, it would be great change
  
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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #2 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 1:23pm
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You can do all that without trying to make a sequel to the game(UO did it) and then you aren't going to loose the player-base in the process by asking them to switch to a "new" game.
  

I'll never understand the propensity of people to brag about being good at a video game. Its a toy you play with for fun. The only person who should be proud of you is your mother. If you're 3.
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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #3 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 1:23pm
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I wouldn't move to DDO2. Spent way too much time and expended way to much effort on the 18 capped and equipped toons I have now.

If they found a way to export said toons to the new game and I got to keep all my stuff, however, I'd jump over in a flash.
  

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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #4 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 1:25pm
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It will suck for _some_ of us in the same way quake 2 transitioned to quake 3.

I could not stand the "look and feel" of the "new" rail gun and the bunny hopping in q3.  Carmack swore back and forth all that code and physics was exactly the same.  (he tried to change it but it got backlash from testers).  Anyway, I never made the jump and I fear I'd feel the same way with a ddo2.
  
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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #5 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 1:36pm
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Did I miss some announcement that DDO2 was coming?
  
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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #6 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 1:48pm
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gawker wrote on Jan 28th, 2015 at 1:36pm:
Did I miss some announcement that DDO2 was coming?


No.
  
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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #7 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 2:29pm
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Arkat wrote on Jan 28th, 2015 at 1:23pm:
I wouldn't move to DDO2. Spent way too much time and expended way to much effort on the 18 capped and equipped toons I have now.

If they found a way to export said toons to the new game and I got to keep all my stuff, however, I'd jump over in a flash.


See now, Ultima Online built a whole new game engine, but left the front-end as-is. Players kept all their stuff, levels, renown, what have you. But the game had a new engine under the hood.

I feel like this concept makes way the hell more sense than "Let's build a whole new game and try to get players to move over".

Even if they let you keep your stuff, in Archon's Quake example if the new game doesn't "feel" quite right, you'll loose players.

This is why sequel MMO always flop.

I'd challenge anyone reading this to name just one "sequel" MMO that wasn't an abject failure.
  

I'll never understand the propensity of people to brag about being good at a video game. Its a toy you play with for fun. The only person who should be proud of you is your mother. If you're 3.
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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #8 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 3:02pm
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I'd be ok with an "engine swap." Along with that, though, I'm afraid they'd have to completely re-write the code to get rid of the "spaghettification."
  

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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #9 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 3:41pm
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So let me get this straight, we are bitching about version of the game that does not exist.  Huh
  
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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #10 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 3:42pm
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Arkat wrote on Jan 28th, 2015 at 3:02pm:
I'd be ok with an "engine swap." Along with that, though, I'm afraid they'd have to completely re-write the code to get rid of the "spaghettification."


That's ultimately what an "engine-swap" would be.

All of our characters, our gear, items, etc, exist as items on a spreadsheet somewhere(kind of Microsoft excel spreadsheet on nuclear-powered steroids). Technically its what we call a "Relational database" so its actually several intertwined spreadsheets, but I digress.

Anyway, the part of the game that we actually care about, is easily separable from the code that causes all of the problems. It would just be a matter of re-creating that code from the ground up, while ensuring that all the little bits of code that point to places on the spreadsheet still point to the right places.

For example: at the character selection screen, you've got a list of character names. That list is generated by a piece of code that looks at your account name, then calls to the database and asks it for a list of your characters. The way the character appears when you select it is another set of calls based on the gear, race, class, etc, much of which is ALSO stored in the database.

It wouldn't be a simple task(but tell that to all the people crying to "make DDO open source!" sorry, but you just aren't going to rebuild a massive code-base in your spare time) but it IS something that can be done.

The answer is to fix the existing game, not to make a different one.
  

I'll never understand the propensity of people to brag about being good at a video game. Its a toy you play with for fun. The only person who should be proud of you is your mother. If you're 3.
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noamineo
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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #11 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 3:44pm
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gawker wrote on Jan 28th, 2015 at 3:41pm:
So let me get this straight, we are bitching about version of the game that does not exist.  Huh


No we're bitching about the people who think they should be making a new game instead of fixing the existing one.

I keep seeing it in thread after thread... "They just need to make DDO2!" Because apparently that has worked for any MMO ever...
  

I'll never understand the propensity of people to brag about being good at a video game. Its a toy you play with for fun. The only person who should be proud of you is your mother. If you're 3.
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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #12 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 4:29pm
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Fuck DDO2 that's like asking for a shit sandwich with cheese because the last shit sandwich these guys served you didn't taste all that good.

I would play a new D&D based MMO though, Call it Waterdeep and I would be there in a second.

The only problem with this is that the spirit of what D&D is has withered away over the years, look at the 4E examples in the other thread.

« Last Edit: Jan 28th, 2015 at 5:26pm by Who Cares »  

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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #13 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 5:20pm
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OP is just "plain wrong".  Star Craft 2?  War Craft 2?  Diablo 2?  Battlefield 2?  SoF 2? Heck, even WoW could be called Warcraft 4.
  

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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #14 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 5:24pm
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Turbine would make it: "DDO2 - Clash of Guilds" and hope for big $$$
« Last Edit: Jan 28th, 2015 at 5:25pm by string table error, tableDID »  

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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #15 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 5:27pm
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noamineo wrote on Jan 28th, 2015 at 2:29pm:
See now, Ultima Online built a whole new game engine, but left the front-end as-is. Players kept all their stuff, levels, renown, what have you. But the game had a new engine under the hood.

I feel like this concept makes way the hell more sense than "Let's build a whole new game and try to get players to move over".

Even if they let you keep your stuff, in Archon's Quake example if the new game doesn't "feel" quite right, you'll loose players.

This is why sequel MMO always flop.

I'd challenge anyone reading this to name just one "sequel" MMO that wasn't an abject failure.


From a theoretical PoV, I think this approach would be most prudent.
DDO2 likely wouldn't succeed commercially, at least under Turdbine, nor do they have any interest in developing more MMO's so it would seem.

A sensible approach as you suggest would be to keep the databases of players and their stuff, but address the underlying game engine.  This is the only way to try to keep your existing playerbase and hopefully bring quite a few back.  Starting from scratch won't appeal to many.

Once you pull back the hood on this, I'm sure the task would begin to grow rapidly as the components of DDO are not modular.
Would you change the visuals engine? A large undertaking to be sure, and as some have alluded to, you risk changing the feel/vibe of the game.

Physics engine/character models/interactable models?  To fix some of the problems, you probably need to tweak these, but these have knock on effects.  If you wanted to free up the developers, you would need to free up 3D movements and make the design engine more amenable to this (so you don't get stuck on rocks 1 inch high).

Game mechanic systems - you would try to keep most of this, but tidy up the code.  Some things would be tempting to fix to make the system "better"' but how far do you go?  Any change here has knock-on effects.
Also lag could be caused by some of the mechanics as they are now - these might need to be addressed so as not to bring the lag problem with them.

Quests - possibly the biggest problem.  Change the engine to be cleaner and better to facilitate faster design and development (this becomes one of the upsides to the business case - quicker development) means either reworking all the existing quests or developing a translation layer for old quests vs new quests.

The knock-on effects will be the unseen killer on a project like this.  Revised artwork, revising thousands of legacy item designs/mechanisms, character sheet/GUI changes, balancing and testing are all elements that would need updating.

The time and cost to do this would be significant.  The difficult part would be working out the commercial reason to do this - the payback as it were.

The sensible approach would be to do it in parallel (keep revenues and current client base), run extensive testing, and switch over after a period of stress testing under live load conditions.

I reckon you could mount a business case to do it, even get a competent team of programmers to do it in 12-18 mths under an experienced systems lead and have a live switch over inside 2 years.

But it will never happen, and I hope it doesn't happen under Turdbine mgmt.  It would be nothing but an unmitigated disaster with their incompetent fingers in the pie.
That's my 10c worth.   Undecided


« Last Edit: Jan 28th, 2015 at 5:28pm by DropBear »  
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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #16 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 5:34pm
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Who Cares wrote on Jan 28th, 2015 at 4:29pm:
I would play a new D&D based MMO though, Call it Waterdeep and I would be there in a second.



Great, the makers of Perfect World Online have just the game for you! Neverwinter Nights Online! That game is just awesome! [/sarcasm]
  

I'll never understand the propensity of people to brag about being good at a video game. Its a toy you play with for fun. The only person who should be proud of you is your mother. If you're 3.
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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #17 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 5:36pm
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Red Sox H8 Yankees wrote on Jan 28th, 2015 at 5:20pm:
Star Craft 2?  War Craft 2?  Diablo 2?  Battlefield 2?


Wrong genres.
  

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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #18 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 5:37pm
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Who Cares wrote on Jan 28th, 2015 at 4:29pm:
I would play a new D&D based MMO though, Call it Waterdeep and I would be there in a second.


Sharn is just as detailed (and cooler, imo) as Waterdeep, if they're limited in their use of the licence.
  

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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #19 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 5:42pm
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Who Cares wrote on Jan 28th, 2015 at 4:29pm:
I would play a new D&D based MMO though, Call it Waterdeep and I would be there in a second.



And I would leave in a new york minute if it sucked, just like I did with Neverwinter. For me the expectations the intro movie set were so high, the actual game never had a chance.
  

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Strakeln wrote on Feb 10th, 2016 at 9:17pm:
WC can do whatever he wants.


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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #20 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 5:50pm
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Red Sox H8 Yankees wrote on Jan 28th, 2015 at 5:20pm:
OP is just "plain wrong".  Star Craft 2?  War Craft 2?  Diablo 2?  Battlefield 2?  SoF 2? .


...Which of these are Massively Multiplayer Online games?


Red Sox H8 Yankees wrote on Jan 28th, 2015 at 5:20pm:
Heck, even WoW could be called Warcraft 4.


Its been a while since I played WoW, but I don't REMEMBER it being a Real-Time Strategy game. Not really sure where you get off calling a game made in a completely different genre a "sequel", unless this is some new definition of the term that myself and the dictionary are unfamiliar with...
  

I'll never understand the propensity of people to brag about being good at a video game. Its a toy you play with for fun. The only person who should be proud of you is your mother. If you're 3.
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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #21 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 5:53pm
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Who Cares wrote on Jan 28th, 2015 at 5:42pm:
And I would leave in a new york minute if it sucked, just like I did with Neverwinter. For me the expectations the intro movie set were so high, the actual game never had a chance.


To be fair, it was pretty obvious from Perfect World's general terribleness that hopes for NNO should not have been high.
  

I'll never understand the propensity of people to brag about being good at a video game. Its a toy you play with for fun. The only person who should be proud of you is your mother. If you're 3.
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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #22 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 5:55pm
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Who Cares wrote on Jan 28th, 2015 at 5:42pm:
And I would leave in a new york minute if it sucked, just like I did with Neverwinter. For me the expectations the intro movie set were so high, the actual game never had a chance.

Apparently the TOEE is being moved into Forgotten Realms (because fuck Greyhawk). And Neverwinter gets to advertise it, but not DDO.
  

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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #23 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 5:57pm
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Revaulting wrote on Jan 28th, 2015 at 5:55pm:
Apparently the TOEE is being moved into Forgotten Realms (because fuck Greyhawk). And Neverwinter gets to advertise it, but not DDO.


TOEE? I'm not up on my tabletop abbreviations...
  

I'll never understand the propensity of people to brag about being good at a video game. Its a toy you play with for fun. The only person who should be proud of you is your mother. If you're 3.
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Re: DDO2... why does anyone think this is a good idea?
Reply #24 - Jan 28th, 2015 at 5:59pm
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Gringo wrote on Jan 28th, 2015 at 1:07pm:
cause it could actually clean all the shit what old code expanded by each generation of coders without proper knowledge of previous code brings.

if they would manage keep player databases and even same current game system functionality, it would be great change

And who do you think from turbine would do that?
Took them 2 years to fix simple red connection first logging problem, when one player did it in like few weeks.
« Last Edit: Jan 28th, 2015 at 6:00pm by Viktor Vaughn »  
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