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Very Hot Topic (More than 75 Replies) U29 AA Shuriken (Read 84080 times)
bosuze
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #25 - Mar 24th, 2015 at 9:20pm
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omfg u guys for real?

a propper pure monk drow shurricannon build has been out there for ages. actually there are 2 versions already.

everyone in our guild has at least one shu-ca in game.

best ranged dps you can get!!!

wow, good morning sleepyheads

« Last Edit: Mar 24th, 2015 at 9:23pm by bosuze »  

so far, så bra
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #26 - Mar 24th, 2015 at 9:35pm
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Grand wrote on Mar 24th, 2015 at 9:01pm:
Two feats by being a Drow, where he goes from there class wise for granted feats is a secondary issue, as chuckers no longer have to be monks to be viable, but they do have to be Drow before Elf or you are gimping out the gate (Elf AA withstanding of course, that changes things)


Context is important, if a thrower has monk levels, the majority of us write off shuriken proficiency as a Drow bonus. I wouldn't call it a secondary issue, I outright disagree with your assessment on how to factor in racial bonuses in this circumstance.

I disagree on your assessment of elf or drow too, I still think there's a some room for halfling with ranger based throwers, even humans have the option to be viable too thanks to their cheap damage boost & +3 dex during actionboosts.

Chuckers may no longer have to be monks to be viable, but I don't recall seeing a thread yet where anyone has put forward a viable build for critique that doesn't include 3monk.

I've been looking into barb/bard throwers, but ultimately they just can't seem to make up for the ninja spy core 2 + shuriken expertise.
  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #27 - Mar 24th, 2015 at 10:42pm
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Lelouch wrote on Mar 24th, 2015 at 8:20am:
Also, dont see carchery, i mean it is a nice increase in dps.
Unless, it of course doesnt work with throwers..
Again..

Also i think putting more points into int for better kta would be better overall.

I just am not sold on pure monk.
You can get killer and free feats /sp rams with ranger.
You can get saves from palie for blanket immunity.
You get some nice benefits from rogue, still worth taking.

Pure monk just seems like the worst option to me.
I would actually entirely skip on 10 k and focus on high dshoot.
Thats why i prefer aa tree, costs crap load ap but the last core alone is to good

Also keep in mind that you can do some odd thrower builds with barb, yes sounds dumb, better for repeti builds, but criti rage is borked when you use it on ranged.

I just see so many better options out there and personally will prolly do something entirely different.

This feels like uhm harr vs firewall xD
Firewall after pure, harr after hybrids.
And we know whose builds were better Wink

From people who play ee specifically on thrower builds, i got confirmation that almost every single one of them is running dreadnought atm, and a friend tested on lama and said its defacto the best dest for shuris now. Keep that in mind


2% more attacks from Great Dexterity is obviously better than +1.5 damage from Combat Archery.

I could move 4 points from con to int. The skill points would be nice. I'm more concerned about my fort save right now than +1 KtA damage though.

I'm not completely sold on monk either, there are lots of ways to do it, but none of the other options seem obviously better right now with the projected u25 changes in mind. My next version might be halfling monk/ranger/rogue if the AP can fit in all the goodies. (halfling crit range, killer, shadow dodge, ninja training, etc.)

I intend to try out different destinies, swapping them out is a simple matter. Shiradi is a good starting point though.
  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #28 - Mar 24th, 2015 at 10:48pm
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Grand wrote on Mar 24th, 2015 at 7:41pm:
Five your just wrong here man, and being a bit of a bitch about it. The elf perks are shit for a chucker compared to a Drow unless you go full AA. It's just a fact. The accuracy is a non-issue on a chucker, The dps will be higher with the drow whether you put more than 6 points in or not. The drow has same con, same dex, better cha, and better int (KtA) than the Elf and two more damn feats. 

It's great that you're getting into building and trying to be like munk, but you got pull that fucking ego in. Because every time someone points out a mistake you act like you're some master builder who knows best which is bullshit. You don't have the track record yet.

Chucker = Drow>Elf


You're right, I didn't factor in the int and cha, but you're wrong about the feats. Even if it were 2 extra feats, I don't need more feats.

Drow will be officially less DPS if I decide to move those 4 points from con to int.

It's a tradeoff. Acting like Drow is obviously better is completely unfounded.
  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #29 - Mar 24th, 2015 at 10:53pm
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kum-gulp wrote on Mar 24th, 2015 at 11:58am:
So forgive my ignorance but is KtA bugged or something? Reading the base description I can't see why it'd be worth all those AP on a build with 8 INT. I am aware I'm not playing and may well be missing something. Or maybe I don't value the first number enough.

Edit: Also my thrower was a first life experiment so I guess she's short on lives/gear for SP and I probably see it as a cost she could spend on healing.


Intelligence:
8 base
5 tome
8 augment
2 insight (augment)
2 profane
2 completionist
2 guild
1 exceptional
=30 without even trying

+5 damage for 1 AP
  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #30 - Mar 24th, 2015 at 11:06pm
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Munkenmo wrote on Mar 24th, 2015 at 6:30pm:
Obvious miss is tomes, after that just some theory dex:

20 base
5 tome
7 level
4 Wind Stance
11 gear
4 insight
1 exceptional
2 profane
2 completionist
2 epic feat
2 racial ap
4 Harper ap
2 NSpy ap
2 NSpy capstone
68

4 Tensors
2 ship
2 yugo
2 store pot
78

(+1) third epic dex feat
6 ed
3 twist
(+1) Upgrading to a +6 tome
89 Total Dex.


Thanks Munk, I knew I was forgetting something. I'm going to add your breakdown to my OP.

I know I'm not going to use all of my twists on Dex, but I might have to do some math comparing Sense Weakness to Shadowdancer Echoes and Overwhelming Crit to Great Dexterity.
  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #31 - Mar 24th, 2015 at 11:38pm
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5 Foot Step wrote on Mar 24th, 2015 at 10:42pm:
2% more attacks from Great Dexterity is obviously better than +1.5 damage from Combat Archery.


That's debatable, even though there's a lot more doubleshot in the game now, the discussion I had with harharhar last year is still relevant.

http://www.ddovault.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1396739803/25
« Last Edit: Mar 24th, 2015 at 11:42pm by Munkenmo »  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #32 - Mar 25th, 2015 at 12:48am
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Munkenmo wrote on Mar 24th, 2015 at 11:38pm:
That's debatable, even though there's a lot more doubleshot in the game now, the discussion I had with harharhar last year is still relevant.

http://www.ddovault.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1396739803/25


Just Touch of Flames + Mortal Fear(the force damage part) is 71 per throw on average. Plus, Sunburst, Fiery Detonation, Wrath of Flames, Meteoric Star, etc.

The physical damage is jacked up way higher as well nowadays.
« Last Edit: Mar 25th, 2015 at 1:15am by 5 Foot Step »  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #33 - Mar 25th, 2015 at 1:18am
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5 Foot Step wrote on Mar 25th, 2015 at 12:48am:
ust Touch of Flames + Mortal Fear(force damage) is 71 per throw on average.


Wow, is it really that good?  I haven't gotten around to running that content or getting / looking into T.Forged gear yet.

I'm fairly sure CA will still be better than epic Dex if your score is going to end up uneven.
  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #34 - Mar 25th, 2015 at 1:51am
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gibbon wrote on Mar 24th, 2015 at 12:20pm:
Ranged CDG?


I had to abandon my Bard thrower because of the lack of Monk levels. I don't think I would dust it off even if they fixed the crit multiplier. Lately, I've been thinking a SWF Swash that switches to a thrown weapon to do a ranged CDG every few seconds would be optimal, but haven't quite decided on a way to build it. If Shadow Dodge wasn't so completely fucked as far as AP and bonuses go, I would just go with a dex build. 
« Last Edit: Mar 25th, 2015 at 1:58am by FM »  
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #35 - Mar 25th, 2015 at 1:56am
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Munkenmo wrote on Mar 25th, 2015 at 1:18am:
Wow, is it really that good?  I haven't gotten around to running that content or getting / looking into T.Forged gear yet.


Yes, 10d6 fire and 8d8 force. TF is be all, end all.


Munkenmo wrote on Mar 25th, 2015 at 1:18am:
I'm fairly sure CA will still be better than epic Dex if your score is going to end up uneven.


No, because Shuriken Mastery and Advanced Ninja Training both run off of your total Dex score, not Dex bonus. Every 1 point of Dex up to 100 will be 2% more attacks.
  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #36 - Mar 25th, 2015 at 2:21am
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5 Foot Step wrote on Mar 25th, 2015 at 1:56am:
No, because Shuriken Mastery and Advanced Ninja Training both run off of your total Dex score, not Dex bonus. Every 1 point of Dex up to 100 will be 2% more attacks.


Right, but you don't do more damage per attack. +1.5w  every attack, esp with shuriken rate if fire is worth doing math on.

I'm having such deja vu.
  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #37 - Mar 25th, 2015 at 2:25am
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So is LD really the best destiny?  Seems like everything is mediocre at best except for blitz, which should contribute even less after the ranged pass.  With so much damage being proc based, it seems like a dex based destiny would be more DPS.
  
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #38 - Mar 25th, 2015 at 2:52am
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Munkenmo wrote on Mar 25th, 2015 at 2:21am:
Right, but you don't do more damage per attack. +1.5w  every attack, esp with shuriken rate if fire is worth doing math on.

I'm having such deja vu.


Combat archery is +1[w] if I recall correctly. Which if we adjust for missing on a 1 and critting 15-20 that d2 averages to 1.71 damage per throw.

Let's assume a dex of 80 vs 81. 80 dex = 160% more throws, so the numbers we need to compare are 1.71x2.6 vs 2% of total damage from a single attack.

1.71x2.6=4.446, so we can reason that if total damage per throw is more than 4.446x50 we should opt for more throws and if it is lower we should opt for more damage.

4.446x50=222.3

Since all of my throws on Lammania did more than 222.3 total damage, I am going to opt for more throws.
  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #39 - Mar 25th, 2015 at 2:53am
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AtomicMew wrote on Mar 25th, 2015 at 2:25am:
So is LD really the best destiny?  Seems like everything is mediocre at best except for blitz, which should contribute even less after the ranged pass.  With so much damage being proc based, it seems like a dex based destiny would be more DPS. 


I personally can't see how 6 dex is going to make up for 70 Ranged Power contributing to both weapon and sneak attack damage, but would be curious to see the math on it. Hopefully someone will crunch the numbers.
  
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #40 - Mar 25th, 2015 at 3:20am
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FM wrote on Mar 25th, 2015 at 2:53am:
I personally can't see how 6 dex is going to make up for 70 Ranged Power contributing to both weapon and sneak attack damage, but would be curious to see the math on it. Hopefully someone will crunch the numbers.


I don't know which is better, but it's not just 6 dex vs 70 RP (64 RP if you account for Shiradi/Shadowdancer starting higher). Six dex is huge, but not being in Shiradi, you also lose all those 7% damage procs, (inlcuding +50% trash damage via nerve venom) and a tier 3 twist to Whirling Wrists, etc.... Not being in Shadowdancer you also lose 6d6 sneak attack, 15% fort bypass, executioner shot, etc.

Still, 64 RP is also huge, but you'd end up putting like 8 points into Con just to get up the tree.
  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #41 - Mar 25th, 2015 at 3:39am
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5 Foot Step wrote on Mar 25th, 2015 at 2:52am:
Combat archery is +1[w] if I recall correctly. Which if we adjust for missing on a 1 and critting 15-20 that d2 averages to 1.71 damage per throw.

Let's assume a dex of 80 vs 81. 80 dex = 160% more throws, so the numbers we need to compare are 1.71x2.6 vs 2% of total damage from a single attack.

1.71x2.6=4.446, so we can reason that if total damage per throw is more than 4.446x50 we should opt for more throws and if it is lower we should opt for more damage.

4.446x50=222.3

Since all of my throws on Lammania did more than 222.3 total damage, I am going to opt for more throws.


Hmm, I forgot to account for ranged power.

1.71*1.48*2.6*50=329.004

I am still going to opt for more throws, but I will retract my statement that it should have been obvious.
  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #42 - Mar 25th, 2015 at 3:57am
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Same math for Overwhelming Critical:

Suppose 80 vs 81 dex and 300 average 1st number damage.

OC would add 300 damage 9.5% of throws, so 28.5 per attack on average.


28.5*2.6 (adjusting for rate of attack)=74.1
74.1*50=3705 average damage to break even.

Yeah, that's not happening. OC stays.
« Last Edit: Mar 25th, 2015 at 6:37am by 5 Foot Step »  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #43 - Mar 25th, 2015 at 4:54am
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5 Foot Step wrote on Mar 25th, 2015 at 3:20am:
I don't know which is better, but it's not just 6 dex vs 70 RP (64 RP if you account for Shiradi/Shadowdancer starting higher). Six dex is huge, but not being in Shiradi, you also lose all those 7% damage procs, (inlcuding +50% trash damage via nerve venom) and a tier 3 twist to Whirling Wrists, etc.... Not being in Shadowdancer you also lose 6d6 sneak attack, 15% fort bypass, executioner shot, etc.

Still, 64 RP is also huge, but you'd end up putting like 8 points into Con just to get up the tree.


Nah you take boosts to keep the +1 w perma, can afford it that way as tosser build, also the action boosts 20 fort save is really great imo on tosser builds without palie levels.
Can you do cals for lets say 2w, from action boosts and carchery +damage boost on tosser builds?

Will tell what i shoot for on tosser builds, its stance swap playstyle.
I take ranger levels for aimed shot, which provs aracher focus stacks on every throw, so if you throw 3/4 and since its deepwood you go for killer thus throwing even more due to dshoot, i always get max archer stacks from 1 aimed shot.
ITs simple, go jump while in air swap to archer, while you land its activated, use aimed shot, swap back to impr precise.
Yes its maybe annoying for some to play that way, but i found regular shuri builds to dull and boring to play.
THis way i also took the upgraded t5 in deepwoood for 25 archer stacks instead of 15 and could keep it perma average at 20 for 40% more projectile damage.
Keep in mind that archer focus also affects sneak damage, i dont know if that is wai either but i thought it was. All those things make pure monk extremely uninteresting to me, and i consider ranger split de facto must picks.
Personally i still prefer the burst from slaying shot and think going 41 ap into  aa is woeth it due to capstone, and all stances working wonderfully on tosser builds.


But lets skip the aa versions and focus on the deepwwod one.
Do you think, that playing with 20 perma archer stacks, having sniper shot, heavy draw, headshot, legshot,  killer, thrill and extra damage vs favor enemy in blitz iwth 2w extra and perma boosted is worse off then a full time dex based tosser in shiradi or shadowdancer?
Keep in mind you can use both heavy draw and precision at the same time.

Just wanted to point out playstyle i toyed with that i consider way better then the non archer focus exploiting ones.
What i found personally is that trash is non existent once you hit 28 anyways, no matter what destiny you pick.
You basically only need a t3 mortal fear shuri and trash is dead no matter what you play in.
And i played with it and guildie is still one, for couple months
Dunno if i should call it a exploit, not sure, its actually wai but gives so much free damage to people who like to play more aggresisve and consider tosser boss dps horrible
« Last Edit: Mar 25th, 2015 at 5:36am by Lelouch »  
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #44 - Mar 25th, 2015 at 5:22am
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5 Foot Step wrote on Mar 24th, 2015 at 10:53pm:
Intelligence:
8 base
5 tome
8 augment
2 insight (augment)
2 profane
2 completionist
2 guild
1 exceptional
=30 without even trying

+5 damage for 1 AP

Ahhh cheers. Some of that is gear/buffs my chucker won't have either. Thanks!
  
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #45 - Mar 25th, 2015 at 5:52am
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Another thing to keep in mind, with the proposed changes to repeteater firing mechanics i can alrdy anticipate repeter monkcher mimic builds to be the new wave of fotm.
Munk, are the devs really so dumb not to take into account what a 4/6 bolts slaying shot barrage on repeteater builds will be able to do?
  
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #46 - Mar 25th, 2015 at 6:07am
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Link to repeater firing changes?
  
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #47 - Mar 25th, 2015 at 6:13am
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https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/457246-Rogue-Mechanic-(and-Traps)-Prop...

Alatricity affecting both reload and fire + shots always being used and aplied correctly due to shoot and reload being same animation (short summarry)

Honestly im against this change since it will totally invalidate monkcher builds, and kick shuris butt.
But hey, if they want us to play repeteater, i have no issue to adapt, turn off sound and viola.
Cant imagine the dumb sound even more offten with alatricity sigh
« Last Edit: Mar 25th, 2015 at 6:17am by Lelouch »  
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #48 - Mar 25th, 2015 at 7:21am
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Lelouch wrote on Mar 25th, 2015 at 4:54am:
Nah you take boosts to keep the +1 w perma, can afford it that way as tosser build, also the action boosts 20 fort save is really great imo on tosser builds without palie levels.
Can you do cals for lets say 2w, from action boosts and carchery +damage boost on tosser builds?


I was planning on Cabal testing different destinies, but Lamm will probably go down before I get a chance.
  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #49 - Mar 25th, 2015 at 8:29am
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5 Foot Step wrote on Mar 25th, 2015 at 7:21am:
I was planning on Cabal testing different destinies, but Lamm will probably go down before I get a chance.


Try with ranger and arcehr focus in dreadnought, im pretty sure it beats other shuri types.
Might have lower burst thne non slaying shot ones.
Friend did a 9 second beatdown, but that was slaying shot with fury on shuri with archer focus.
Most ap into aimed shot and slaying shot on his build, basically started with with archer focus, used aimed, then adrenaline boosts slaying shuru toss.
Can be done faster i think
  
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