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I imagine you will hate this (Read 96355 times)

Revaulting Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline Posts: 10143 Location: Not in my pants Joined: Apr 3^rd, 2014 Gender:	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #225 - Jun 24^th, 2015 at 9:18pm	Print Post
	Quote: I will take what legal remedies are available to me as the original poster and pursue them. Derp. This sentence, you'll find, is the extent of the legal remedies available to you. Nice double-derp addition to being surprised that someone who edited your comment might edit your responses to it. Conducting the whole argument on Geoff's website, where he has full control makes it a triple-derp. Going for a Turbine-style home run? Geoff's being a shit-head right now, no doubt. But you're the one who pushed this past discussion. Meursault wrote on Jun 24^th, 2015 at 11:23am: Geoff, this is beneath you. Comments posted to your blog do not become your intellectual property. Intellectual property can be weird. Hammertop unequivocally and without doubt owns the copyright on his words. Copyright is conferred, legally, at the moment of writing them. Publication rights, however, probably not. Geoff could make the conditions clearer by having a statement on his site that commenters yield first publication, serial publication, or some other version in exchange for publication in his comments section. But it's a blog, so ... is Geoff making money? No fucking point, then is there?

	Silence is golden, but I only get silver rolls.
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Yobai Epic Poster Offline Posts: 4126 Joined: Jul 26^th, 2012	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #226 - Jun 24^th, 2015 at 9:22pm	Print Post
	Asheras wrote on Jun 24^th, 2015 at 11:25am: So you are surprised that guy who defends Jerry to the ends of the earth actively moderates posts and acts in poor faith?� Really? And the rest of us are the half-wits?� You didn't think it through. but now he's gonna pursue his legal options against Geoff! it's all part of his masterful endgame. we poor halfwits just can't see that many moves ahead.

	Revaulting wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 8:16pm: Have you tried a lower difficulty, such as the official forums?
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Yobai Epic Poster Offline Posts: 4126 Joined: Jul 26^th, 2012	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #227 - Jun 24^th, 2015 at 9:25pm	Print Post
	Revaulting wrote on Jun 24^th, 2015 at 9:18pm: But it's a blog, so ... is Geoff making money? No fucking point, then is there? not so fast. Geoff is probably up from 14 views a week to 45 views! all thanks to Hammertop! I wouldn't discount all the legal options available to Hammer with that flood of additional revenue.

	Revaulting wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 8:16pm: Have you tried a lower difficulty, such as the official forums?
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Grand Ex Member I Love Drama!	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #228 - Jun 24^th, 2015 at 9:36pm	Print Post
	Revaulting wrote on Jun 24^th, 2015 at 9:18pm: Derp. This sentence, you'll find, is the extent of the legal remedies available to you. Nice double-derp addition to being surprised that someone who edited your comment might edit your responses to it. Conducting the whole argument on Geoff's website, where he has full control makes it a triple-derp. Going for a Turbine-style home run? Geoff's being a shit-head right now, no doubt. But you're the one who pushed this past discussion. Intellectual property can be weird. Hammertop unequivocally and without doubt owns the copyright on his words. Copyright is conferred, legally, at the moment of writing them. Publication rights, however, probably not. Geoff could make the conditions clearer by having a statement on his site that commenters yield first publication, serial publication, or some other version in exchange for publication in his comments section. But it's a blog, so ... is Geoff making money? No fucking point, then is there? So out of this whole fucking mess, this was your take away huh? Fail mate.


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Yobai Epic Poster Offline Posts: 4126 Joined: Jul 26^th, 2012	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #229 - Jun 24^th, 2015 at 9:40pm	Print Post
	Grand wrote on Jun 24^th, 2015 at 9:36pm: Fail mate. is that a chess term?

	Revaulting wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 8:16pm: Have you tried a lower difficulty, such as the official forums?
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Grand Ex Member I Love Drama!	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #230 - Jun 24^th, 2015 at 10:06pm	Print Post
	nah, just a expression of disappointment in the normally brilliant Revaulting. Oh well, everybody has a off day now and then.


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Meursault Horoluth Raider Offline I Love Freedom of Speech Posts: 2410 Location: Hartford, CT; USA Joined: Aug 22^nd, 2013 Gender:	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #231 - Jun 24^th, 2015 at 10:30pm	Print Post
	Revaulting wrote on Jun 24^th, 2015 at 9:18pm: Intellectual property can be weird. Hammertop unequivocally and without doubt owns the copyright on his words. Copyright is conferred, legally, at the moment of writing them. Publication rights, however, probably not. Geoff could make the conditions clearer by having a statement on his site that commenters yield first publication, serial publication, or some other version in exchange for publication in his comments section. But it's a blog, so ... is Geoff making money? No fucking point, then is there? But publication rights don't confer the right to change the content. Authors get to accept or reject (usually at the cost of publication) the edits. There is certainly no profit to ask for a cut of, but I would think a takedown order or maybe even a libel charge might hold. But enough of the lawyer crap, I just meant it is wrong for Geoff to leave the edited post up if the author thinks the edits necessary to meet Geoff's standards are more than he wants to accept. But in the way this has played out since I made that statement, it's looking like appealing to Geoff's morality isn't my most productive approach

	Turdbin, keep changing the DDO rules, because McDonalds sold over 200 billion hamburgers by changing the recipe for their Special Sauce every couple of months to keep interest up.
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Hiding Shroud Slacker Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 1298 Joined: Feb 5^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #232 - Jun 24^th, 2015 at 10:47pm	Print Post
	geoffhanna wrote on Jun 24^th, 2015 at 12:38pm: I know better than to try to change minds, but I do want to correct a handful of things. Yes I have had a Vault tab open all day. I usually do now that I am working from home. Not when I was working in an office though! and There is this interesting idea out there that I am seeking to "boost my traffic" for some reason. I don't make money off of DDOgamer. It has no ads. It's just a fansite that I run because I can. I like to promote the game, I like it when people read the blog, and I make an effort to let people know about it, but again, it doesn't make me money. It costs me money. And it is probably not money well spent. No, I blocked you for spamming the site with the same 1200 words over and over and over even after I asked you to stop. Nicely. Several times. No, that did not happen. I removed some of his words, and clearly annotated where I did that, and included a (clearly annotated) summary of what I thought he was trying to say. However, I probably am a little bitch. No one is going to take me seriously no matter what I do. Nor should they. But again, his post was not "changed". It was "moderated", as fairly as I could (which you may disagree), and completely transparently (which you cannot disagree). Nor did I do anything to the many angry posts Hammer added to the article, except to remove the 1200+ word original comment, which he spanned half a dozen additional times. See above regarding intent. And I didn't really get a request to pull the comment, I received arrogant orders to include all of the original content including the personal attacks that I had removed. But the rest of your point may have some validity, maybe? I think I am in the right here, but I don't believe I am unassailably so, rather instead, I am quite fallible. Perhaps this is yet another instance. Would today be different if Hammer had said something like "Hey Geoff, I don't think you got the meaning of my comment right, can we hold off on your post?" Maybe. But I dunno, I'd already done the whole graphic and everything, and besides we all agree that I am just a little bitch. And an asshat. You guys really do need to add some ranks to your Insult skill. I miss Gawna. I don't know what to say about this. Whatever else you can say about the guy, he clearly has a passion for the game. Nothing he said on my site should have anything to do with anything in-game. Maybe there is more to the story? You have deep insecurity issues.


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Hiding Shroud Slacker Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 1298 Joined: Feb 5^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #233 - Jun 24^th, 2015 at 10:53pm	Print Post
	Revaulting wrote on Jun 24^th, 2015 at 9:18pm: Derp. This sentence, you'll find, is the extent of the legal remedies available to you. Nice double-derp addition to being surprised that someone who edited your comment might edit your responses to it. Conducting the whole argument on Geoff's website, where he has full control makes it a triple-derp. Going for a Turbine-style home run? Geoff's being a shit-head right now, no doubt. But you're the one who pushed this past discussion. Intellectual property can be weird. Hammertop unequivocally and without doubt owns the copyright on his words. Copyright is conferred, legally, at the moment of writing them. Publication rights, however, probably not. Geoff could make the conditions clearer by having a statement on his site that commenters yield first publication, serial publication, or some other version in exchange for publication in his comments section. But it's a blog, so ... is Geoff making money? No fucking point, then is there? If Hammertop seriously approached lawyers - like he's going to move beyond threatening that - Geoff could just take the entire page off. The very best the lawyers could do is a cease and desist order - they'd have to start with that anyways. Then Geoff would just go "ok, removed. So sorry." Or, even better, "ok, removed as per your request. While we deny any accountability, we apologize for any personal issues you may have had because you submitted your letter to a privately monitored blogsite." It's not like Hammertop can prove losses or damage to his person. He's quite clearly not some famous writer who's words were stolen so that Geoff could make money and there isn't a chance in hell that anyone could prove Geoff had anything to do with Hammertop's bans. So, once again, despite the screaming of internet people, there's no legal battle here.


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Hiding Shroud Slacker Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 1298 Joined: Feb 5^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #234 - Jun 24^th, 2015 at 11:00pm	Print Post
	Meursault wrote on Jun 24^th, 2015 at 10:30pm: But publication rights don't confer the right to change the content. Authors get to accept or reject (usually at the cost of publication) the edits. There is certainly no profit to ask for a cut of, but I would think a takedown order or maybe even a libel charge might hold. But enough of the lawyer crap, I just meant it is wrong for Geoff to leave the edited post up if the author thinks the edits necessary to meet Geoff's standards are more than he wants to accept. But in the way this has played out since I made that statement, it's looking like appealing to Geoff's morality isn't my most productive approach� Well said.


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Revaulting Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline Posts: 10143 Location: Not in my pants Joined: Apr 3^rd, 2014 Gender:	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #235 - Jun 24^th, 2015 at 11:33pm	Print Post
	Grand wrote on Jun 24^th, 2015 at 9:36pm: So out of this whole fucking mess, this was your take away huh? lol. No. This was what I added. Not that I expected anyone to be clear on that, because you're right, it's a mess. Thinking there's a take away from a mess like this is the fail. One brings fuel, or one brings popcorn. But if you take anything away, you're doing it wrong.

	Silence is golden, but I only get silver rolls.
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Revaulting Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline Posts: 10143 Location: Not in my pants Joined: Apr 3^rd, 2014 Gender:	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #236 - Jun 25^th, 2015 at 12:30am	Print Post
	Meursault wrote on Jun 24^th, 2015 at 10:30pm: But enough of the lawyer crap, I just meant it is wrong for Geoff to leave the edited post up if the author thinks the edits necessary to meet Geoff's standards are more than he wants to accept. But in the way this has played out since I made that statement, it's looking like appealing to Geoff's morality isn't my most productive approach Fair enough. I don't feel any need to appeal to Geoff anymore, either. If you're hoping to get Geoff to do something, it's probably a better idea to PM him one-on-one. I don't think morality is an issue, here. Both Geoff and Hammertop have explained themselves fairly well. Geoff's reasons aren't nonsense, they just aren't reasons you (or I) agree with. They certainly aren't immoral. If anything, they could stand to be a bit less moral. Hammertop's, too. Impugning morality is part of why communication broke down between Geoff and Hammertop in the first place. Shit. I'm taking this in a P&R direction. Grand wrote on Jun 24^th, 2015 at 10:06pm: the normally brilliant Revaulting. Right. Fear of going blind from looking at my posts, sure. Fear of brilliance being the cause? Doubtful.

	Silence is golden, but I only get silver rolls.
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Forest Ex Member	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #237 - Jun 25^th, 2015 at 1:37am	Print Post
	Revaulting wrote on Jun 25^th, 2015 at 12:30am: Fair enough. I don't feel any need to appeal to Geoff anymore, either. If you're hoping to get Geoff to do something, it's probably a better idea to PM him one-on-one. I don't think morality is an issue, here. Both Geoff and Hammertop have explained themselves fairly well. Geoff's reasons aren't nonsense, they just aren't reasons you (or I) agree with. They certainly aren't immoral. If anything, they could stand to be a bit less moral. Hammertop's, too. Impugning morality is part of why communication broke down between Geoff and Hammertop in the first place. Shit. I'm taking this in a P&R direction. Geoff's behavior and intention was demonstrably immoral. He removed several sections of Hammer's post and then intentionally misrepresented what he removed and why. Then he lied multiple times after the fact until he was confronted (here on the vault) with the proof of his misrepresentation about a passage and his lie that he hadn't changed anything. That was a ongoing effort on his part to damage the message Hammertop had made by misrepresenting the removed content and repeatedly lying about having done no such thing solely with the aim to discredit Hammer when Hammer complained. That combined effort lasted several hours and underwent several tweaks during the course of his lies being challenged and exposed by posters here on the vault and on his site where they were summarily removed with no explanation.� Additionally he removed all the posts in which Hammer asked him politely to remove the "modified post" and only left in the later more angry demanding post by hammer, another conscious effort by Geoff to skew the situation. All that combined with his use of the ddo forums and the pile on technique were dishonest and made to undercut a poster he had invited to his site but who's comment's he couldn't debate honestly, so he twisted and warped the content. All in all entirely immoral.
	« Last Edit: Jun 25^th, 2015 at 1:40am by »

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Revaulting Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline Posts: 10143 Location: Not in my pants Joined: Apr 3^rd, 2014 Gender:	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #238 - Jun 25^th, 2015 at 2:59am	Print Post
	Quote: Geoff's behavior and intention was demonstrably immoral. He removed several sections of Hammer's post and then intentionally misrepresented what he removed and why. Then he lied multiple times after the fact until he was confronted (here on the vault) with the proof of his misrepresentation about a passage and his lie that he hadn't changed anything. That was a ongoing effort on his part to damage the message Hammertop had made by misrepresenting the removed content and repeatedly lying about having done no such thing solely with the aim to discredit Hammer when Hammer complained. That combined effort lasted several hours and underwent several tweaks during the course of his lies being challenged and exposed by posters here on the vault and on his site where they were summarily removed with no explanation.� Additionally he removed all the posts in which Hammer asked him politely to remove the "modified post" and only left in the later more angry demanding post by hammer, another conscious effort by Geoff to skew the situation. All that combined with his use of the ddo forums and the pile on technique were dishonest and made to undercut a poster he had invited to his site but who's comment's he couldn't debate honestly, so he twisted and warped the content. All in all entirely immoral. Well argued, but all resting on a critical flaw: For your assessment to be true, Geoff had to know what the fuck he was doing in the first place. For every point where you assert conscious and deliberate action, I can counter with bumblefuck and dimwittery. For your premise, you need Geoff to be intelligent + immoral. For mine, all I need is for Geoff to be kinda dumb. Geoff has defended Cordovan. Does this meet the requirement of "intelligent?" Your move.

	Silence is golden, but I only get silver rolls.
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Hiding Shroud Slacker Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 1298 Joined: Feb 5^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #239 - Jun 25^th, 2015 at 7:34am	Print Post
	Revaulting wrote on Jun 25^th, 2015 at 2:59am: Well argued, but all resting on a critical flaw: For your assessment to be true, Geoff had to know what the fuck he was doing in the first place. For every point where you assert conscious and deliberate action, I can counter with bumblefuck and dimwittery. For your premise, you need Geoff to be intelligent + immoral. For mine, all I need is for Geoff to be kinda dumb. Geoff has defended Cordovan. Does this meet the requirement of "intelligent?" Your move. Geoff's insecurity explains the pattern of deleting posts and (purposefully) misrepresenting what was deleted, then painting Hammertop in a bad light by selective deleting and additional misrepresentation. Additionally, you have - or rather, he has - convinced us all that he's also kind of dumb.


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Skoodge LORD OF BOOBS Offline Whatever Posts: 3702 Location: Why? You want to visit me? Joined: Jul 19^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #240 - Jun 25^th, 2015 at 7:50am	Print Post
	No offense guys but this is a long, pointless discussion. As soon as it hits the internet you have nearly no control over it anymore. This includes pictures (you know how hard and costly it is for a woman to try and get revenge porn removed? Expensive as hell and impossible) or words. Welcome to the 21st century - you say something online, you're going to lose control over your precious words. Hammer/frost/whoever the fuck you are - you ran your mouth off and someone's using it against you. Man up, own it, move on. Don't be a pussy. Geoff - don't be a douche. You might not care about the opinion of the average vaultie - but you are being kind of douche-y right now. Either take the high road and give up/take down this drama - or be a douche. If you pick option B and continue down that road, it will eventually bite you on your ass. Also, boobs.

	Turbine policy - glitches and poor coding resulting in interference of your game play or enjoyment will be ignored.� Glitches or poor coding on the developers side that at all benefit your game play or enjoyment will result in your character being banned and/or items from your inventory deleted.� Please report all bugs via our bug report...when it works.
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Azog Ex Member	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #241 - Jun 25^th, 2015 at 10:53am	Print Post
	I really don�t have very much time, so I will keep it short: Geoff, you are a piece of shit.


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geoffhanna Korthos Resident Offline Default Catchphrase Posts: 35 Joined: Sep 1^st, 2010	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #242 - Jun 25^th, 2015 at 7:43pm	Print Post
	Lessons learned An awful lot of what was written about this event is wrong and, one assumes, written by "me too" people who did not bother to go to my site and see what was really there. But you already know this. I wrote about the Vault a week or so ago for several reasons but one of them was because I think there are people here who love the game and are under-served. I posted a link to the article because I was hoping some of you would contribute. I did not bring yesterday's adventure here, Hammertop did, although I did respond. Several times. Hammertop and Factor share an IP address and post within a couple of hours of each other. If you want to believe that Hammer's IP was released (by Cox, according to whois) and randomly assigned to Factor by some insane stellar coincidence, well, I guess have fun with that. I did not post my admin logs yesterday because it violates the only rule you have here. Instead I sent screenshots to Strakeln. Is that "proof"? Not if you want to believe it isn't. Hammer/Factor was quite the convincing troll. I bought his act entirely, and wrote that entire article to try and give his topic a voice. He even stayed in character in private messages that no one else would ever see. Well done! Assuming you admire that sort of thing. I reviewed everything I wrote here yesterday, and it all seems reasonably okay. I stand behind it. I do regret that there is so much of it, my normal posting average here is .002 per day and I should probably stick to that. TL:DR - I feel badly for the words and characters that have to exist in HagMaster's postings. What a horrible, horrible fate.


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yabber Ex Member	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #243 - Jun 25^th, 2015 at 7:47pm	Print Post
	geoffhanna wrote on Jun 25^th, 2015 at 7:43pm: Lessons learned An awful lot of what was written about this event is wrong and, one assumes, written by "me too" people who did not bother to go to my site and see what was really there. But you already know this. I wrote about the Vault a week or so ago for several reasons but one of them was because I think there are people here who love the game and are under-served. I posted a link to the article because I was hoping some of you would contribute. I did not bring yesterday's adventure here, Hammertop did, although I did respond. Several times. Hammertop and Factor share an IP address and post within a couple of hours of each other. If you want to believe that Hammer's IP was released (by Cox, according to whois) and randomly assigned to Factor by some insane stellar coincidence, well, I guess have fun with that. I did not post my admin logs yesterday because it violates the only rule you have here. Instead I sent screenshots to Strakeln. Is that "proof"? Not if you want to believe it isn't. Hammer/Factor was quite the convincing troll. I bought his act entirely, and wrote that entire article to try and give his topic a voice. He even stayed in character in private messages that no one else would ever see. Well done! Assuming you admire that sort of thing. I reviewed everything I wrote here yesterday, and it all seems reasonably okay. I stand behind it. I do regret that there is so much of it, my normal posting average here is .002 per day and I should probably stick to that. TL:DR - I feel badly for the words and characters that have to exist in HagMaster's postings. What a horrible, horrible fate. So, if Factor is a sock of Hammertop, how does that invalidate Hammertop's points? Here's a hint: it does not. The fact is that Cuntovan's biased mismanagement of the forum community is doing real harm to the game, and has been for a long time.


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yabber Ex Member	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #244 - Jun 25^th, 2015 at 7:50pm	Print Post
	You can throw all the red herrings you want at the problem. It is not going away.


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Sasha Abbot Raider Offline Posts: 818 Joined: Apr 13^th, 2014	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #245 - Jun 25^th, 2015 at 7:57pm	Print Post
	I'm so lazy to catch up on this week's drama so I'll just leave more rabbits in cups.
	« Last Edit: Jun 25^th, 2015 at 7:57pm by Sasha »

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mystafyi Abbot Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 836 Joined: Nov 10^th, 2010	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #246 - Jun 25^th, 2015 at 8:01pm	Print Post
	geoffhanna wrote on Jun 25^th, 2015 at 7:43pm: Instead I sent screenshots to Strakeln. Is that "proof"? Not if you want to believe it isn't. No, you broke the only rule right there. You are making strake work! But seriously, I will have to wait and see if strake looks at your logs and compares what you say is factor and hammers ip and what strake see's here. I am doubtful he would waste the time.


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Strakeln Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline Lumberjack Posts: 12345 Joined: Jun 27^th, 2009	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #247 - Jun 25^th, 2015 at 8:32pm	Print Post
	Geoff did indeed send me screenies that drew a line between Factor and Hammertop.

	┌∩┐(◣_◢)┌∩┐
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Forest Ex Member	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #248 - Jun 25^th, 2015 at 8:59pm	Print Post
	geoffhanna wrote on Jun 25^th, 2015 at 7:43pm: I reviewed everything I wrote here yesterday, and it all seems reasonably okay. I stand behind it. Really Geoff? It seems reasonable to you does it? sure I could argue that easily, but I think the much much more importantly we need to take a look at what you just said here: geoffhanna wrote on Jun 25^th, 2015 at 7:43pm: I stand behind it. Where? where have you stood behind it Geoff? because look at this post below that you have been avoiding ALL FUCKING DAY AND ALL FUCKING NIGHT. Just look at this post with your quotes and explain Geoff, since you're "standing behind it" it's now actually time to stand behind it: Forest wrote: Quote: See you made many claims yesterday and I took the time to point out a little fib you were trying to sell... Hey how about I just put the post up here, it's the one you ran away from yesterday, take a look, see if you can talk your way out of it today okay?: Forest posted: Quote: geoffhanna wrote on Jun 24^th, 2015 at 1:56pm: Every word that Hammer posted on DDOGamer is still there and visible, except for the personal attacks that I redacted (in a clearly labeled manner) from his original post. I did not edit his comments at all. Although I did delete the 1200-word original post that he recopied in. Seven times. No. You deleted whole sections and then make misleading statements about what you removed to downplay the removal, and mock the content. Especially egregious is when you said: Geoff wrote: Quote: [Here Darren defends the way that the Vault population makes constant personal attacks versus Turbine employees]" When in fact Hammertop said nothing of the sort instead pointing out how Cordovan used the specter of the vault to serve his own ends: Hammertop wrote: Quote: The only power the Vault has, is as a strawman the Mr. Snook uses to defend his questionable performance as community manager. Every time Cordovan makes a mistake that he gets taken to task for, like the instulting �wing-nut, tinfoil hat� comments on the DDOtwitch he uses the Vault as a excuse and blames unrest on the vault. This gives the Vault what little power it has, it is just a boogeyman that Cordovan drags out when he needs cover or wants to discredit dissenting opinion. Now no one who hasn't read the original as we have here will know that you totally lied about the content you removed there. You removed it and then describe something else entirely. Saying that Hammertop was "defending the way the vault attacks cordovan" when if fact Hammertop said nothing of the sort and instead pointed out how Cordovan uses the vault. You made up your summary of Hammertop's statement out of whole cloth, Hammer's statement doesn't even share a single stitch in common with what you claimed you had removed. Simply put you are a liar, and you were caught. Which is why you couldn't afford in anyway to allow Hammertop's real statement to be seen. It's funny you were still around for a couple hours after I posted that and super active slinging lies over on your site as well, but for some reason you never got around to responding to this proof that you did in fact fuck with the content of Hammertops post, and lied about what you removed.... So maybe now you can explain????? See You're a fucking cowardly liar Geoff, I post this several places for you and I even PM's a copy to you, and I posted it on your comments only to have it deleted Geoff, so tell me how is hiding form this post which shows you were lying your ass off about how you edited Hammer's posts, how is hiding from it "standing behind It"?


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Hag Master Ex Member I Love Drama!	Re: I imagine you will hate this Reply #249 - Jun 25^th, 2015 at 9:03pm	Print Post
	Strakeln wrote on Jun 25^th, 2015 at 8:32pm: Geoff did indeed send me screenies that drew a line between Factor and Hammertop. When did he send those? I ask because I'm curious how many hours it took him to whip them up.... let me rephrase that, I'm curious how many hours it took him to find someone to whip them up for him.


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