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Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? (Read 68402 times)

5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #200 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 3:38am	Print Post
	Quote: Weapon � �� Bolt fired per second Fraction of second per bolt Great Crossbow � �� 1.515 � �� .66 Heavy Crossbow � �� 1.515 � �� .66 Light Crossbow � �� 1.752 � �� .57 Heavy Repeating Crossbow � �� 2.63 � �� .38 Light Repeating Crossbow � �� 2.71 � �� .36 All the tests were done on the same character with it's fletching deactivated, blinding speed running, rapid reload active, but no other class haste boost active, etc in effect.� I apologize for the rough format, I tried to pull it out of a excel table/package that I was given but my forum posting skills are not great. I tested and confirmed these numbers this week, so for the next four hours they should be solid reference points for the discussion here. Intial data credit goes to Forest, I only tested and confirmed the numbers he sent me.� So we can conclude that GX needs to do about 2x per bolt compared to light repeater to come out ahead. Base models (assumes 0% fortification): Light repeater [d8]+9 17-20x3 (8 extra iterations of damage) = average of *364.5* damage over 20 bolts. Great crossbow 3[2d8]+17 15-20x4 (18 extra iterations of damage) = average of *1628* damage over 20 bolts. Increases to proc damage favor repeaters. Increases to base damage (including ranged power) and on critical effects favor GXbow. 1628 > 729
	« Last Edit: Aug 12^th, 2015 at 3:51am by 5 Foot Step »
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Galadriel DQ Assaulter Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 419 Location: Middle Earth Joined: May 20^th, 2015 Gender:	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #201 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 4:32am	Print Post
	5 Foot Step wrote on Aug 12^th, 2015 at 3:38am: So we can conclude that GX needs to do about 2x per bolt compared to light repeater to come out ahead. Base models (assumes 0% fortification): Light repeater [d8]+9 17-20x3 (8 extra iterations of damage) = average of 364.5 damage over 20 bolts. Great crossbow 3[2d8]+17 15-20x4 (18 extra iterations of damage) = average of 1628 damage over 20 bolts. Increases to proc damage favor repeaters. Increases to base damage (including ranged power) and on critical effects favor GXbow. 1628 > 729 Your problem is in red. The attack sequence for 20 bolts on a repeater is calculated as 5 separate attack animations (5 different clips if you will which will result in 21 bolts fired but this is not important). These 5 attack animations are the same as attacking only 5 times with a GxB and not 20. If we are comparing base damage per bolt, I would agree with your assessment but we are not comparing base damage per bolt now are we? If you want a different comparison of bolts fired then here: GxB = 1.515 bolts per second LRxB = 2.71 bolts per second Across a time span of 60 seconds: GxB = 90.9 bolts LRxB = 162.6 bolts


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Rubbinns The Undeserving Fuckwit Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 10460 Joined: Sep 4^th, 2013	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #202 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 4:36am	Print Post
	5 Foot Step wrote on Aug 12^th, 2015 at 2:52am: So...you haven't played one? oh, lol. i see we're going with a stupid defense. Okay. So, where is your 15minute fot record with your superior gxbow and optimal strategy? huh? what? nothing? thought so.

	Mockduck wrote on Aug 30^th, 2010 at 2:20pm: I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #203 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 5:38am	Print Post
	Galadriel wrote on Aug 12^th, 2015 at 4:32am: Your problem is in red. The attack sequence for 20 bolts on a repeater is calculated as 5 separate attack animations (5 different clips if you will which will result in 21 bolts fired but this is not important). These 5 attack animations are the same as attacking only 5 times with a GxB and not 20. If we are comparing base damage per bolt, I would agree with your assessment but we are not comparing base damage per bolt now are we? If you want a different comparison of bolts fired then here: GxB = 1.515 bolts per second LRxB = 2.71 bolts per second Across a time span of 60 seconds: GxB = 90.9 bolts LRxB = 162.6 bolts I was actually comparing 1 GX bolt to 2 repeater bolts. GX wins. Quote: So we can conclude that GX needs to do about 2x per bolt compared to light repeater to come out ahead.

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Hiding Shroud Slacker Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 1298 Joined: Feb 5^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #204 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 5:38am	Print Post
	Rubbinns wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 8:11am: why is the fot solo record using repeaters? or is that the great xbow firing speed How do you know he's using a light repeater? I don't think that's Needle - I always get yellow numbers on the TO using Needle. So I'd guess that's a Thunderholme repeater and, afaik, the heavy repeater does more damage. The repeaters also out-damage the GXB, especially once you consider added damage/shot. If you totally ignore all added damage per shot, then the repeaters are just slightly ahead of the GXB for dps. So GXBs fall pretty far behind once you consider all other sources of damage. Turbine didn't equalize them - I don't know why. They must not be able to do math or they strangely think that on vorpal hits are meaningful in a game where killing something is faster than CCing it first. If we pretend that GXBs equal Repeaters once you consider the on vorpal hits, then you'd only ever use GXBs for trash. But since that's not true, no amount of pretending will help us, and they're kind of a flavor weapons. Anyways, it doesn't really matter which you use if you're not competing for timed runs, given how easy the game is now.


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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #205 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 5:44am	Print Post
	Rubbinns wrote on Aug 12^th, 2015 at 4:36am: oh, lol. i see we're going with a stupid defense. Okay. So, where is your 15minute fot record with your superior gxbow and optimal strategy? huh? what? nothing? thought so. Mech is one of my side projects. My mech is not yet capped, and it is one of my tertiary characters that have few past lives, so I am in no position to set a record. That doesn't mean that I can't do math. My gimpy alt mechanic IS one-shotting elite bb mobs at level 19 with a ML 7 GXbow though,...and with those 2 levels of arti, he doesn't even have the x4 crit yet.

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Hiding Shroud Slacker Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 1298 Joined: Feb 5^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #206 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 5:49am	Print Post
	Meat-Head wrote on Aug 8^th, 2015 at 1:52am: Also does the Harper Int to dmg stack with Mech int to dmg? Repeater for Pali's, absolutely. The math puts Needle ahead, except if you're using Mortal Fear or on bosses that have some DR.


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yardarm Ex Member	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #207 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 5:51am	Print Post
	As someone with several capped Mechs now I would point out another problem: variety. Because of the changes that Turbine stumbled into on the Mech, they produced a viable and enjoyable class. The down side being that it is so superior to every other ranged class out there that for me it has reduced any real variety. Unless I'm willing to run a sub-optimal character It's going to be a mechanic variant if I run a ranged character, additionally that character would be stupid not to have 18 levels of mech. Worse after finding some acceptance for content the Developers are as usual expanding on that. All the recent loot includes Gxbs� and shuriken for the single type of viable throwers and little else for ranged. It's such a Turbine thing to do, ride some popularity into the ground. In case there was some confusion about the loot point I was trying to make; I don't find the epic version of the Sapphire sting a viable longbow.
	« Last Edit: Aug 12^th, 2015 at 5:56am by »

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yardarm Ex Member	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #208 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 5:57am	Print Post
	Meat-Head wrote on Aug 8^th, 2015 at 1:52am: Also does the Harper Int to dmg stack with Mech int to dmg? No. but KTA does.


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Rubbinns The Undeserving Fuckwit Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 10460 Joined: Sep 4^th, 2013	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #209 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 6:13am	Print Post
	5 Foot Step wrote on Aug 12^th, 2015 at 5:44am: elite bb mobs at level 19 lol

	Mockduck wrote on Aug 30^th, 2010 at 2:20pm: I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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Rubbinns The Undeserving Fuckwit Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 10460 Joined: Sep 4^th, 2013	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #210 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 6:31am	Print Post
	Hiding wrote on Aug 12^th, 2015 at 5:38am: How do you know he's using a light repeater? guessing due to rapid reload only working for light.

	Mockduck wrote on Aug 30^th, 2010 at 2:20pm: I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #211 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 6:31am	Print Post
	5 Foot Step wrote on Aug 12^th, 2015 at 3:38am: So we can conclude that GX needs to do about 2x per bolt compared to light repeater to come out ahead. Base models (assumes 0% fortification): Light repeater [d8]+9 17-20x3 (8 extra iterations of damage) = average of *364.5* damage over 20 bolts. Great crossbow 3[2d8]+17 15-20x4 (18 extra iterations of damage) = average of *1628* damage over 20 bolts. Increases to proc damage favor repeaters. Increases to base damage (including ranged power) and on critical effects favor GXbow. 1628 > 729 Adding in TF procs: 1st burns + MF 19x(17.5+36) Repeater = 733 (Multiply by 2 to adjust for RoF = 1466) GXbow = 1996.5

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Hiding Shroud Slacker Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 1298 Joined: Feb 5^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #212 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 7:12am	Print Post
	Rubbinns wrote on Aug 12^th, 2015 at 6:31am: guessing due to rapid reload only working for light. Wait, what? Why is rapid reload only working for light??? grrrrrrr!


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davenot Ex Member	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #213 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 7:52am	Print Post
	DropBear wrote on Aug 12^th, 2015 at 3:33am: Davenot - what time period were these tests done over for each Xbow? Tests for a weapon type is 5 sets of 500 bolts, 100 in hand and 400 in quiver. So depending on the weapon it was 4-6 minutes for each of the sets. Took me about 45-60 minutes to run a full test for each individual weapon type. Also people may be interested to know that needle's rapid reload is not giving any increase to the numbers when a stacked Mechanic is using it.


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Ses... Korthos Resident Offline Go to hell. Posts: 8 Joined: May 14^th, 2015 Gender:	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #214 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 7:54am	Print Post
	Rubbinns wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 4:24pm: depends who is playing it. I mean, it's Goldy's record @15mins. Sestra has pally monkcher at 17mins. Im sure those guys could do it on pally mechs and not be too many minutes off that time. I believe Gold's 15 minute something run on pure mech has more to do with superior strategy than superior build. Might be both but the strategy of taking down crystal during last pair beat down saves a lot of time, maybe not 2 minutes but taking in to consideration it is also a different update puts the builds pretty evenly matched IMO.
	« Last Edit: Aug 12^th, 2015 at 7:55am by Ses... »

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DropBear Dropbear Awareness Society Offline Don't forget to look up.... Posts: 4377 Location: Landdownunder Joined: Oct 11^th, 2013	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #215 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 8:56am	Print Post
	Quote: Tests for a weapon type is 5 sets of 500 bolts, 100 in hand and 400 in quiver. So depending on the weapon it was 4-6 minutes for each of the sets. Took me about 45-60 minutes to run a full test for each individual weapon type. Also people may be interested to know that needle's rapid reload is not giving any increase to the numbers when a stacked Mechanic is using it. Thanks, that sounds pretty thorough.

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DropBear Dropbear Awareness Society Offline Don't forget to look up.... Posts: 4377 Location: Landdownunder Joined: Oct 11^th, 2013	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #216 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 9:01am	Print Post
	Apologies if this is a silly question, but I don't have a ranged specialist toon and haven't run with a great Xbow before. Someone mentioned the knockdown ability of Great Xbows earlier. How do you factor that into the equation? Raw DPS is one thing, but if any opponent is knocked on their ass, they aren't doing any damage to you? Is the knockdown effect noteworthy enough to consider in a more holistic equation encompassing weapon effectiveness? Are bosses immune to the great Xbow knockdown?

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davenot Ex Member	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #217 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 9:18am	Print Post
	DropBear wrote on Aug 12^th, 2015 at 9:01am: Apologies if this is a silly question, but I don't have a ranged specialist toon and haven't run with a great Xbow before. Someone mentioned the knockdown ability of Great Xbows earlier. How do you factor that into the equation? Raw DPS is one thing, but if any opponent is knocked on their ass, they aren't doing any damage to you? Is the knockdown effect noteworthy enough to consider in a more holistic equation encompassing weapon effectiveness? Are bosses immune to the great Xbow knockdown? If you vorpal on a GxB it will no-save knockdown a mob if it is non-boss. Be advised that the game no longer gives helpless damage for the knock down. But it is still helpful in damage mitigation. The devs broke the knockdown with the implementation of the Xbow changes during the mech rollout, initially claiming wasn't broken, and then claiming it never gave helplessness, and when that was proved wrong conclusively Severlin changed his tune claiming it was his intention all along. Helplessness would have driven a whole different set of builds if it had remained. A big consideration with the new mechanics is that when they are using a GxB they will vorpal on 19 or 20, and that will proc both the no save knockdown and any other vorpal triggered effects you may have on your weapon, feats, epic destinies. Just to be clear, yes, bosses ignore the knockdown effect, but not any additional vorpal triggered effect the character may have.
	« Last Edit: Aug 12^th, 2015 at 9:25am by »

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DropBear Dropbear Awareness Society Offline Don't forget to look up.... Posts: 4377 Location: Landdownunder Joined: Oct 11^th, 2013	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #218 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 9:55am	Print Post
	Thanks Davenot for the clear response. Appreciated. Quote: The devs broke the knockdown with the implementation of the Xbow changes during the mech rollout, initially claiming wasn't broken, and then claiming it never gave helplessness, and when that was proved wrong conclusively Severlin changed his tune claiming it was his intention all along. Wow, that sounds very unusual eh? DDO devs being progressively backed into a corner, caught in their own lies/ineptitude, before claiming it was their intent all along. WAI - case closed. Hubris.

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Galadriel DQ Assaulter Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 419 Location: Middle Earth Joined: May 20^th, 2015 Gender:	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #219 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 10:22am	Print Post
	Quote: Just to be clear, yes, bosses ignore the knockdown effect, but not any additional vorpal triggered effect the character may have. Is there any actually useful vorpal based effect besides the various bane damage vorpal effects, as well as a chance at insta-killing low hp targets which is not overly useful to begin with? DropBear wrote on Aug 12^th, 2015 at 9:55am: WAI - case closed. Will most likely stay this way until somebody more competent gets their hands on the code. Must be dreaming to get any hope that high...


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DoRayEgon Shroud Slacker Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 1042 Joined: Apr 4^th, 2014	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #220 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 10:55am	Print Post
	Consider my wad blown.


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Yobai Epic Poster Offline Posts: 4126 Joined: Jul 26^th, 2012	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #221 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 12:30pm	Print Post
	Quote: The devs broke the knockdown with the implementation of the Xbow changes during the mech rollout, initially claiming wasn't broken, and then claiming it never gave helplessness, and when that was proved wrong conclusively Severlin changed his tune claiming it was his intention all along. same ol' Turban song and dance. "we didn't change anything" to "OK it did change but it wasn't WAI and now it is"

	Revaulting wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 8:16pm: Have you tried a lower difficulty, such as the official forums?
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Yobai Epic Poster Offline Posts: 4126 Joined: Jul 26^th, 2012	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #222 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 12:37pm	Print Post
	Rubbinns wrote on Aug 12^th, 2015 at 6:31am: guessing due to rapid reload only working for light. rapid reload doesn't work for heavy repeaters now? fuuuuuuk. I can't keep up with all the borken shit in this game.

	Revaulting wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 8:16pm: Have you tried a lower difficulty, such as the official forums?
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QuantumFX Shroud Slacker Offline Now back to the GOOD part! Posts: 1170 Joined: Nov 15^th, 2011 Gender:	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #223 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 12:44pm	Print Post
	Something I�m not seeing in this conversation: Keeping blitz going (And more importantly, fully stacked.) with a great crossbow, even while soloing as a mechanic, is a pain in the ass.


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Metal-Beast Abbot Raider Offline \m/ Posts: 767 Joined: Apr 13^th, 2014	Re: Why Are Folks Shooting Their Wad Over Mechanics? Reply #224 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 2:42pm	Print Post
	Rubbinns wrote on Aug 5^th, 2015 at 3:15pm: This. I have seen first life players that I never heard of before playing mechs. And they can contribute very much. Trying to get guildies with alts to roll one because I like piking. Me too. I also enjoy piking with Warlocks.

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