I wasn't considering the Elf AA build.  Will be interesting depending on how they settle on Manyshot and 10kstars.  I like the idea of going deep into DWS for the capstone and doing tier 5 AA and shadow arrows and remaining a pure ranger.  If it makes more sense to go 12/6/2, then it is easy enough to TR into that.  I'll let it shake out and see where we are when it goes live.

apparently bored wrote on Oct 7^th, 2015 at 11:02pm:


Nope it's not.

SweetKitten wrote on Oct 7^th, 2015 at 2:24pm:


On the ManyShot changes:

Currently:  30 seconds of 4 missles per fire.  40 seconds of no Doubleshot, so 1 missle per fire.  Then 50 seconds of doubleshot.

New:  30 seconds of 2 missles per fire (since doubleshot caps at 100%) with 112 RP (assuming a full BAB at 28).  Then 90 seconds of normal doubleshot with normal RP. 

So, from a rate of fire, it is a clear loser.  If you had a 100% doubleshot without manyshot (Which is the cap) . you would be losing 2 missles per fire for 30 seconds and gaining 1 missle per fire for 40 seconds.  Although, in this scenario, ManyShot is useless because your native doubleshot is already at the cap. 

For simplicity sake, assume you fire once per second (not true, but you can always do math to extrapolate):

Toon with 100% Doubleshot:
Old Way:  4*30 = 120 + 1*40=40 + 2*50=100  =260 missiles in 120 second cycle.
New Way: 2*120 = 240 missile in 120 second cycle.
Not using Manyshot: 2*120 = 240 missile in 120 second cycle.

Toon with 50% Doubleshot:
Old Way:  4*30 = 120 + 1*40=40 + 1.5*50=75  =235 missiles in 120 second cycle.
New Way: 2*30 = 60 + 1.5*90 = 135 = 195 missiles in 120 second cycle.
Not using Manyshot: 1.5*120 = 180 missiles in 120 second cycle.

Toon with 25% Doubleshot:
Old Way:  4*30 = 120 + 1*40=40 + 1.25*50=63  =223 missiles in 120 second cycle.
New Way: 2*30 = 60 + 1.25*90 = 113 = 173 missiles in 120 second cycle.
Not using Manyshot: 1.25*120 = 150 missiles in 120 second cycle.

Toon with 0% Doubleshot:
Old Way:  4*30 = 120 + 1*40=40 + 1*50=50  =210 missiles in 120 second cycle.
New Way: 2*30 = 60 + 1*90 = 90 = 150 missiles in 120 second cycle.
Not using Manyshot: 1*120 = 120 missiles in 120 second cycle.

On a pure missiles fired basis the new changes clearly suck ass and are a huge loss in power. 

Next you have to factor in 100+RP.  Which is dependent on how much RP you have without ManyShot.  Basically 100RP is doubling your base damage.  But it's not doubling your overall damage because it is additive, not multiplicative.  If you had 0 RP without Manyshot, then it would double your overall damage.  If you have 100 RP without Manyshot, then it is only increasing your damage by 50%.  With 50RP, it is increasing it by 66%.  If you have 25 RP then it is increasing it by 80%.

We can show the impact of this strictly by using this % difference as a modifier to rate of fire.  So, if the RP doubles your damage, it would be equivalent to doubling your rate of fire at the original damage level. 

Toon with 100% Doubleshot:
Old Way:  4*30 = 120 + 1*40=40 + 2*50=100  =260 missiles in 120 second cycle.
New Way:
     100RP:  2*30*1.5=90 + 2*90=180 = 270 missile in 120 second cycle.
     50RP:  2*30*1.66=100 + 2*90=180 = 280 missile in 120 second cycle.
     25RP:  2*30*1.80=108 + 2*90=180 = 288 missile in 120 second cycle.
     00RP:  2*30*2=120 + 2*90=180 = 300 missile in 120 second cycle.
Not using Manyshot: 2*120 = 240 missile in 120 second cycle.

Toon with 50% Doubleshot:
Old Way:  4*30 = 120 + 1*40=40 + 1.5*50=75  =235 missiles in 120 second cycle.
New Way:
     100RP:  2*30*1.5=90 + 1.5*90=135 = 225 missile in 120 second cycle.
     50RP:  2*30*1.66=100 + 1.5*90=135 = 235  missile in 120 second cycle.
     25RP:  2*30*1.80=108 + 1.5*90=135 = 243 missile in 120 second cycle.
     00RP:  2*30*2=120 + 1.5*90=135 = 255 missile in 120 second cycle.
Not using Manyshot: 1.5*120 = 180 missiles in 120 second cycle.

Toon with 25% Doubleshot:
Old Way:  4*30 = 120 + 1*40=40 + 1.25*50=63  =223 missiles in 120 second cycle.
New Way:
     100RP:  2*30*1.5=90 + 1.25*90=113 = 203 missile in 120 second cycle.
     50RP:  2*30*1.66=100 + 1.25*90=113 = 213  missile in 120 second cycle.
     25RP:  2*30*1.80=108 + 1.25*90=113 = 221 missile in 120 second cycle.
     00RP:  2*30*2=120 + 1.25*90=113 = 233 missile in 120 second cycle.
Not using Manyshot: 1.25*120 = 150 missiles in 120 second cycle.

Toon with 0% Doubleshot:
Old Way:  4*30 = 120 + 1*40=40 + 1*50=50  =210 missiles in 120 second cycle.
New Way: 2*30 = 60 + 1*90 = 90 = 150 missiles in 120 second cycle.
     100RP:  2*30*1.5=90 + 1*90=90 = 180 missile in 120 second cycle.
     50RP:  2*30*1.66=100 + 1*90=90 = 190  missile in 120 second cycle.
     25RP:  2*30*1.80=108 + 1*90=90 = 198 missile in 120 second cycle.
     00RP:  2*30*2=120 + 1*90=90 = 210 missile in 120 second cycle.
Not using Manyshot: 1*120 = 120 missiles in 120 second cycle.

So, unless my math is flawed (quite possible) the old way and new way are identical in output if you have 0% Doubleshot and 0 RP and if you have 50% doubleshot and 50RP.  Unless you have a massive amount of natural doubleshot (close to 100%) and RP (50+) then the new feature is generally a mild to severe nerf overall.

And this doesn't take into account the idea that with the old way you could manyshot for 30 seconds, switch to blades and melee for 90 seconds at a far superior rate of DPS.

I would be interested to see what the numbers look like if they did NOT cap DoubleShot at 100%.  That seems to be a major flaw in the new way that is limiting the value of ManyShot.  The RP boost seems solid.  Another option would be to lower the cool down or increase the duration of the manyshot buff.      

All in all it is a huge fail for Turbine.  People wanted the penalty to go away because it was making bow use non-viable.  Giving something that is a nerf over 120 seconds is not a solution.

Meursault wrote on Oct 8^th, 2015 at 12:03pm:


I didn't include the elemental damage.  Those will add damage, to be sure, but RP doesn't affect them, so the ratios above will hold.  Spell Power does.  Not sure yet on what multiple.  But either way, Manyshot's RP won't be a factor.  Only the rate of fire.

I don't know if damage from procs like Vorpal, Banishing, and Distruption use RP.  I'm not seeing any documentation on that officially.

I'm sure that the added elemental damage will increase the overall bow DPS vs. what we are seeing today, but when you look at the nerf that Manyshot is getting, I'm not sure there is any overall gain in DPS.   AA tree was a +, Manyshot was a -.  For a weapon that was far behind the others, one step forward, one step back wasn't the way to go.

archon wrote on Oct 8^th, 2015 at 1:12pm:


It's called setting the bar of expectation really, really low.
That way when they do achieve anything (like updating a spelling error in a text box) people are pleasantly surprised.

It's the same approach with "it's too hard, the code is a mess".  How can you argue against that unless you're experienced enough to know that competent people deal with too hard every day - it can be referred to as ingenuity, innovation and persistence.