Give them time, they'll fix the game right, invisible wall at character creation is the next fix.

DropBear wrote on Oct 9^th, 2015 at 8:34pm:


That's not exactly what I say.
but it's a fair enough approximation... They probably respect the bugs their predecessor left... It's just that they don't want to come near them trying to fix stuff...
I suspect it's more an issue of having no clue regarding what bit of code is doing what more than anything else...

If you look at what has appeared recently in the Vault Leaks there's definitely a problem with DDO code and how it gets handled...
It's the first time I see comments of the kind : "This is not used anymore, but needs to kept there, because if it gets removed other things gets broken"
( that's not the actual comments, just an approximation )

It's like the String Table Errors, they should be super easy to fix :
Find the entity generating it, and check that all the DID tied to that entity points to the right thing.
( if it's an NPC that generate it when interracting : Find the NPC, Find the On_Interract event and check that it points towards the one liner the NPC is supposed to say. )

Ok it means that Devs needs to have a clue of what the game code is supposed to do and also a clue regarding what an action is supposed to trigger...
It doesn't seem to be the case... I have it on good authority that String Table ( the most visible ones ) are usually tough to fix.
( ok, if Tough means time consuming, I will agree, as you need to be methodical in following the stuff, but it's so not difficult to do that a trained monkey could probably do it after it got shown what to do. )

Flav wrote on Oct 10^th, 2015 at 6:17am:

If they'd just log when the string table lookup function threw an error they'd have a list of all of them in one update, do they really try to find and fix them by hand?

Meursault wrote on Oct 10^th, 2015 at 7:11am:


yup...  and they need to be pointed to the thing ( NPC, Item, ...whatever ) that gives out the String Table Error.

ok, I need to point another fact out : String Table Errors, as they are non game breaking errors, gets the lowest of the low priority when it comes to fixing.
turine seems to be unable to understand the visibility concept... they high fucking visible bugs and should be squished ASAP, because every fucking player will notice them...
But no Turbine.... String Table Errors comes after everything else, or if a Dev stumble upon one while doing something else it will be fixed.

Revaulting wrote on Oct 10^th, 2015 at 7:30am:

LOL, Touche!

Meat-Head wrote on Oct 9^th, 2015 at 7:10pm:


Not This. That.

FranOhmsford wrote on Oct 10^th, 2015 at 1:21pm:


See, that's what makes it a great quest: multiple ways to finish.  The XP people get their quick fix, a flowersniffing group can meander and explore, hell, there are even roleplaying possibilities, "I'm going to scout ahead through that little gap... argh! save me!"  Quests like this appeal to a broad range of playstyles, and if there were more like it, there would likely be more player retention across the board.  If there are more players, then anyone can afford to be more picky about who they're grouping with, and not have to worry about zergers in RP groups, but that ship sailed long ago.

Starkjade wrote on Oct 10^th, 2015 at 1:30pm:


What gets me is that wanting to run Kobold Ringleader as intended is considered Flower-Sniffing?

We're talking about a 45 second difference in completion time for a decent player - A newbie will take longer either way.

I understand the shortcut in ToEE Pt 1 far more than I do the one in Ringleader BUT it suffers the exact same issue:
Once someone learns the shortcut they have no reason to run the rest of the quest!

If the newbie is forced into taking the shortcut on their first ever run thanks to that first run being with the wrong group then they lose something intangible.

Oh and as you've said...An RP group could easily end up taking that shortcut too {and missing out on a large portion of the quest}.


P.S. How many people run Wiz King as intended? All 6 going up one tower at a time? I'd guess it's less than 1%!

FranOhmsford wrote on Oct 10^th, 2015 at 2:02pm:

What do you mean as intended.  The shortcut in KNR was clearly intended by the devs.  Otherwise they would have fixed it when they changed the box configurations in the quest. 

And Wiz King was VERY obviously meant for people to split up.

FranOhmsford wrote on Oct 10^th, 2015 at 1:21pm:


As others have said, quests with various ways to finish are good.
Optionality is good.
There should be (and is) a trade-off.  Quick completion, miss optionals.

Being forced to complete obviously linear quests repeatedly detracts from the immersion and player engagement.

You seem to subscribe to the view that the game must be played the way the devs intended?  Who is the game designed to entertain?
The devs need to ensure game balance is maintained, but the rest should be left up to the players to find their own way of enjoyment within the rules.

If I designed a quest and people found a clever way to complete it (eg. Maze in GH), I would be happy.  If players could shortcut the entire quest, get the XP and loot, then that obviously distorts the game balance and needs to be adjusted.
But being able to bypass a heavy traps section, makes it viable for non-trap builds.

The part of the picture you're missing Fran is choice.
I know most of the shortcuts that have existed, and I sometimes use them, sometimes not.
If I'm running in groups on EE farming items, then the shortcut is on.
If I'm running solo on EH, I'm often happy to play the full quest just for something different.
I have a choice and my choice does not really affect others.

What you seek is absolute control.  In an antiquated form of social justice, everyone must play the same in order to be "fair".  The misguided part of this is that everyone's experience will be different regardless of how fair you attempt to make it.  Why?  Because everyone's toon will be different, their knowledge different and their skills different.  Some will always have an advantage, so fairness is just an illusion.  The devs should seek holistic balance in terms of XP, time to complete, loot etc.  if someone finds an "edge" that does not distort the game, leave it be.

What the devs need to work toward is guidance, not control.   So that players feel like they are in control.  It's a subtle, but important psychological hook.
DDO has done this right in some ways.  Independent quests that you can run in any order at any level - this gives players choice and is a real positive in DDO.  Quests that can be completed solo or in group is another example of the flexibility of the system.

Not every quest can be flexible or have alternatives, but some should.
I can see they are trying to do this, but the really obvious split paths mechanism is clunky and still doesn't give the illusion of choice.
In Archon's Trial, unless I'm a rogue, I don't really have a choice.

FranOhmsford wrote on Oct 10^th, 2015 at 2:02pm:

I'd just like to point out the EVERYTHING in this game is intangible 

FranOhmsford wrote on Oct 10^th, 2015 at 7:52pm:

You mean ... like when you almost get somewhere but find an invisible wall blocking you?