DropBear wrote on Oct 11
th, 2015 at 4:37am:
Okay Fran, in my opinion you're doing two things here to obfuscate the argument.
Remember that the discussion here is about whether choices are possible/desirable, not the motivations to use them. The motivations are important, but not the focus.
You're moving from quest design/mechanics to group dynamics/behaviours and adding in an extreme example.
I would have more empathy for a real example rather than an extreme unrealistic example.
The problem is that any real example would favour your side of the argument as your side of the argument is favoured in-game!
My example is unreal specifically because in-game the optimal choices ALL favour the XP/Min Crowd!
My question is what if the tables were turned? And everything in game favoured taking twice or even 3 times as long to complete the quest.
Would you be happy then? I doubt it.
DropBear wrote on Oct 11
th, 2015 at 4:37am:
If the devs loaded all the XP so heavily on one option, I would say they have my previously articulated balance wrong.
I think they do get the optional XP balance wrong a fair bit such that it does not justify the extra time and effort. I think this likely premised on the default assumption that most players complete optionals and thus if Optional XP is raised, it makes the quest XP too high.
Yep - There doesn't seem to be a clear vision about Quest XP from Turbine.
Take Gwylan's Stand and Caverns of Korromar for instance - One is Lvl 7 and gives 15-20k XP.
One is Lvl 8 and gives about 8k XP.
Now I used to think that that was because all the XP in Korromar was tied up in optionals.
Then I took a look at the XP report with all opts done and it adds maybe 2.5k!
No wonder so many people skip the opts and run the quest as fast as possible!
Take Tavern Brawl - I ran it at BB Level this week on my Warlock and it gave 5k!
5k for a Lvl 14 quest! {Yes this was on Heroic}.
And it's a brutal fight - Quick but not easy! {I hate it when I have to say this but COMPARATIVELY to other quests of the same level!}.
Why does it give so little XP?
DropBear wrote on Oct 11
th, 2015 at 4:37am:
The tuning does continue to get looked at and so it should. Unfortunately, they change popular quests to make them less popular and poorly explain themselves. I don't like this as it just adds to the perception that they nerf everything players enjoy. VON3 as an example. I don't have the data they do, but the perception remains that they like to spoil by bringing it back to the pack.
Oh come on - VoN 3 absolutely needed that nerf!
Chains of Flame got buffed at the same time and now gives 95k per run with the optional completed {85k without}.
That's on par with what VoN 3 gives!
Only it takes 4 times as long! 20 mins for Chains, 5 in a decent group for VoN3.
Then you add in the run out there and I can't get anyone to join me in Chains - I run it anyway as one of my Dailies! It's actually one of my favourite quests!
The quest that really needs nerfing XP wise though is Wiz King {150k per 5 minute run each day, Over 100k on 2nd run!}.
On the other hand - EVERY EE Quest that currently gives less than 50k should give at least 10k more and some should give far more than that.
Snitch or BoB or Tharashk Arena - On EE these give less than 30k 1st Run - They should give no less than 50k! {Keep EN/EH XP the same.}.
Small Problem gives about 50k WITH Opts! Should give 80k!
Oh and the newer EE Quests in Amrath - 50K for EN - HALF what VoN 3 gives - Why?
VoN 3 being nerfed is not a problem - It's that other quests weren't buffed and that EN gives out far too much!
DropBear wrote on Oct 11
th, 2015 at 4:37am:
The next major issue you introduce is group dynamics which makes the arguments more murky. For some, peer pressure is irrelevant as they'll play as they like. The possibility for individual play exists and is possible in most quests. This is an MMO, so group dynamics do need to be a focus though. There are many options in group play - PUGs vs Guild/friends. Form your own groups vs join others - they all change the dynamic. If you form your own group and set the difficulty, you have more say in how a quest is played.
Group dynamics is a huge issue that the Devs should consider when creating quests!
This is an MMO and yes there will be people of differing styles of play and thought processes BUT the Devs should look at finding the middle ground where all can be at least partially happy!
I'm of the opinion that a Short Cut should involve a harder fight!
It shouldn't be just a short cut - The long route should be less brutal.
Ringleader is a 3-5 minute quest even taking the long route - It has no need for a short cut!
Archons Trial has the two options BUT one is ridiculously easy compared to the other - So much so that it doesn't make sense to do the trap route even on a trapper!
Move the trap route to bypass the Devil fight however and you give a reason to take that route!
DropBear wrote on Oct 11
th, 2015 at 4:37am:
Absolutely this. Well said 5FS.
Having GM'd for over 30 yrs, one of my greatest rewards is seeing innovative solutions. I like to throw challenges at players and not necessarily predict the outcome.
In terms of story, I plan for key NPC's to have an escape route (or 3) as the players tend to surprise you.
You need pacing, plot and things to move the story in the right direction, but I don't like to pre-determine the way in which PC's solve the obstacles and challenges. I go with what makes the story interesting and reward innovation as much as I can.
You know what - I was in a group with a great DM but sometimes he didn't want to DM, He wanted to play. So we all got a chance to DM....Only because he was so good that chance was NO chance!
We were shot from the get go!
2 Examples of when I tried to DM for that Group:
1) I told them I couldn't create a campaign without knowing what characters were going to be in it.
I said that the first session would be character creation.
30 minutes left before the end of the session and they insisted I give them something to do.
So I did {I gave them an Arena fight as they were playing Gladiators in Dark Sun} and they did nothing but complain!
I didn't get a second session!
2) I created a small dungeon and placed a nice bit of loot behind a secret door that I knew they'd find.
They found it then refused to go through it because in their words "I wanted them to go through it"!
They cut off their noses to spite their faces!
It's not always the DM who is the problem!
DropBear wrote on Oct 11
th, 2015 at 4:37am:
Developing an MMO should be similar within the constraints of it being an MMO - a key example being repeatability. PnP campaigns can't be farmed for XP and loot, so this is why balance is important. The devs shouldn't care how players spend their time, so long as it is fun.
The Devs should absolutely care how players spend their time because they're not aiming for one player to have fun they're aiming for ALL players to have fun {or at least as many as possible!}.
If a few players are having fun at the expense of the many as in DDO that's a problem!
And don't tell me the many are having fun - The many quit within a week of downloading the game!
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