I'm curious what people think.

I'm very much of the opinion that they should be able to be passed, because

- This is aimed at "punishing" people who want to multibox, but since the majority of players don't, it's mostly just going to stop people from running this raid to pass their friends/guildies runes.

- Players who want to multibox shouldn't be punished in the first place.

Just like any other way to play DDO, it comes with inherent costs and benefits. If you want to multibox, you have to spend time and/or money creating multiple accounts, leveling them, getting packs, and moving them places. Even for a decent player the raids will presumably be faster and easier for someone who joins a pug, and a bad player probably won't even be able to complete them by himself.

- Having the system work this way encourages players to either P2W and buy a shitload of the new bypasses or roll up a bunch of iconic alts to get runes.

Pseudonym wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 1:25pm:


I say no.  The raid runes are your raid completion tracker.  You can't currently pass your completion to another player to count towards their 20th.  I disagree that this is a "punishment" to the multiboxer.  A "punishment" indicates that a negative action is being taken.  I see no negative vs. the current environment for the multiboxer.  They may not be giving a benefit, but that is not the same as a "punishment".

Example:  You go to the store. You ask for a cupcake.  Your parent says no.  You are not being punished.  You are just not getting a reward.

You punch your brother in the face.  You get a spanking.  That is a punishment.

See the difference?

The new system is allowing you to share completions on an account.  That is a reward.  They are letting you maintain progress through TR's.  That is a reward.  They are letting you get more progress on harder difficulties.  That is a reward.

You can't say:  Well I only run norm.  Therefore I'm being punished for not running Elite or Hard.  That's a fallacy.  The same as saying, well I don't run multiple toons on one account.  I have multiple accounts.  Therefore I'm being punished.  Also false.

There are plenty of rewards for multiboxing, like multiple rolls on the loot table.  Multiple completions isn't one of them.

I do not agree that raid tokens should be passable to other players. 

Asheras wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 1:40pm:


You're right about it not being a "punishment", a more accurate way to phrase it would've been saying that it's making a certain style of play not an option.

Asheras wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 1:40pm:


Allowing you to share completions on an account is beneficial to players who have a lot of level 20+ characters on their account. It's also something that I somewhat disagree with having nothing to do with the passing thing, since I'm of the opinion that you should have to run a raid on the character that you want the raid gear on. Letting you maintain progress across multiple lives isn't a "reward", it's just a change in policy.

If the IRS decides to lower the amount of taxes that people in your income bracket pay, you end up with more money in your pocket but they weren't rewarding you.

Asheras wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 1:40pm:


Like I said, earlier in my response, you're right. "Punished" was the wrong word to use, but they are preventing you from using a particular play style.

Asheras wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 1:40pm:


This is really more comparable to passing phlog than passing completions. Thunderholme has items, but most people run it primarily for TF weapons. Most people will be running legendary shroud for legendary green steel.

Pseudonym wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 2:04pm:


They aren't "preventing" you from doing anything.  They just aren't giving all the new benefits you want in this changed system.  People multi-box in the current system and they can do so in the new one.  With no negative impact, only positive.  The same positives every other account gets.  That's like saying Turbine prevents people from playing monks because they gave Pallys PRR and monks didn't get any.  Or they prevent you from playing a Pally because Fighters just got tactics and PRR/MRR feats that pallys don't get. 

You keep using words that make it sound like you are being harmed or impeded by not getting a reward or benefit that you want.  When really, you want an improvement that doesn't exist today.  And your only argument is to make it sound like you are being harmed if you don't get it.

It is not comparable to passing Phlogs.  Phlogs are loot.  You have always been able to pass loot, including crafting ingredients.  Phlogs <> completions to 20th list.  Phlogs = crafting ingredient = loot.  In the new environment you can pass all loot, including LGS crafting ingredients.  The same as now.  You just can't pass the completion runes that go towards the completion reward list. 

Just because phlogs are all you want, doesn't make them not loot and suddenly the completion tracking mechanic.  Don't confuse your goals with the system.

 

Asheras wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 2:15pm:


They're preventing me from utilizing a system that's worked for every single raid where people were trying to loot stuff.

Asheras wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 2:15pm:


Allowing people to pass raid ingredients that are used in crafting wouldn't be a "new benefit", it would be a continuation of the old system. People can multi-box in the current system and profit from it, people can multi-box in the new system with greatly decreased benefits.

Asheras wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 2:15pm:


I'm being prevented from running content the way I want to run it, and the vast majority of people who don't want to run it my way are being prevented from passing raid ingredients to their friends/guildies. Allowing people to pass stuff that they don't need to people who do need said stuff isn't an "improvement", it's a continuation of the status quo.

What I want would (obviously) benefit me, but reducing it to "some guy wants Turbine to scratch his back" is inaccurate. I've been spending most of this conversation talking about multi-boxing because that seems to be the main area where we disagree, but I genuinely believe that allowing these runes to work like shards of power, phlogs, or coh would be beneficial to a large chunk of the player base.

Asheras wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 2:15pm:


I think this is the fundamental point where we disagree. You view the runes as a method of tracking raid completions, I view them as just another ingredient analogous to phlogs.

Runes, like phlogs, will be awarded in the end chest of raids.
Runes, like phlogs, will drop on all difficulties with potentially higher numbers on higher difficulties.
Runes, like phlogs, will be used in a crafting system.
Runes, unlike phlogs, can be turned in for named items from the raids.

Would you be okay with it being possible to pass runes if they were only used for legendary green steel and a second type of (not able to be passed) rune were to be added in the quest reward list as a substitute for raid completions? If so, I think that could be a solution that most people from both camps could agree with.

Pseudonym wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 2:39pm:


You are right.  We don't agree on what they are, thus we don't agree on how they should be handled.

I believe they are what Turbine defines them as.  A mechanic/system for tracking completions with more flexibility than the current 20th run system.    They are analogous to your slayer count tracker, your bravery bonus, and your 20th run counter, and your saga trackers.

You want to alter Turbine's definition of them from a system/mechanic to loot.  They keep telling you that they are not ingredients or loot.  But you don't listen.  You keep repeating the mantra "they are loot.  I should be able to pass loot.  They are stopping me from passing loot, which is unfair."  And that would be true.  If they were loot.  Which they are not. 

Look, Turbine has been clear.  They aren't loot.  You saying they are because Turbine is choosing to deliver them with the loot doesn't make them loot.  But, since that doesn't fit your agenda, feel free to ignore what the game designer is classifying them as and classify them as whatever you want.  It's a free country.  But you aren't going to get anywhere by blatantly calling a rabbit a chicken and wondering why it can't lay eggs. 

I think Turbine should move them from the chest and just auto assign them on completion.  Like they do challenge ingredients and night revels ingredients.  It will solve this problem of people thinking of them as loot and will also solve the problem of people being dead at completion and unable to reach a shrine and be able to loot the chest, or DC'ing when the chest pops or accidently recalling.  A much better solution than having them in the chest.  That is a mess. 

Pseudonym wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 3:35pm:


I have a fundamental issue with what these runes represent and what you want to do.

These runes are an improvement on the 20 completions tracking system.  The goals were to reward running on harder difficulties.  Thus, they switch from every run you as a player complete = 1/20th of what you need to a system where each run you complete gives a variable amount of progress towards the goal.  Sometimes it might be 1/50th.  Sometimes 1/25th.  Sometimes 1/10th. etc.  Based on the difficulty level of the run and some dice rolling.   

As a system change I like the difficulty level variation.  The random element, I could do without, but whatever.  Overall, it works for me.  I like the idea that running on elite gets me a 20th reward 3-4 times as fast as norm runs, on average.

BUT, the key tenent of this whole process is that you run the raid and you get progress towards completion.  Each run gets you one step closer based on the difficulty.  Now, it used to be that this was per character counter and they are switching it to a per account counter.  And I'm fine with that because you can only play 1 character on an account at a time.  So, if norm runs take 25 on average to get a list, you can run 25 different toons once or 1 toon 25 times or any combination in between.  But you are still running the raid on norm 25 times. 

Your proposal violates this tenant.  It says, I can run the raid once on norm with 11 multiboxes piking and be 12/25 of the way there.  One run took you 12 steps forward.  Do that a second time, and I'm basically at a 20th list after 2 runs.  If I run on elite with 3 friends and we each quad box, then we can get 1/2 the runes we need with each run.  Again, 2 runs and we have a 20th.  So we see that difficulty no longer matters.  What matters is how many multi-boxes I can cram into a run.  But I can get a 20th reward every 2 runs regardless of difficulty.  That is breaking the original intent.

Allowing per account vs. per character does not, in any way alter the math as to how many runs it takes to get a reward list.  It just allows you to avoid needing bypass timers.  Which is a good thing.  Your change alters the math on how many runs it takes to get a reward list.  To me, that is not a good idea.  It weakens the replay-ability of the content.  I think it over-incentivizes multi-boxing.  And removes grouping opportunities.  I don't think it is a good option.  And I have 4 accounts and 4 PC's.  I can multi-box if I want.  Or get my teenage kids to run the other 3 accounts and pass me the goodies.

I somewhat like that these will allow completions to persist through TR's.

As someone who's always had to rely on 20th's, I'm fairly against reducing the 20th list in return for "upping" the drop rates in each chest.

Munkenmo wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 4:55pm:


What do you mean by reducing the list? It will be a full list just like your 20th

Have no fear, if you run raids even on two characters you will notice your loot coming in a lot faster if you just get your 20ths since now you can run them 2 or 3 times (and even while you are tring!) more often if you don't want to use raid timers.

Turbine's devs are shit (like the code they added since I left the game is remarkably inefficient and broken) and turbine is remarkably short sighted. But even a broken clock is right twice a day and they nailed this one on the head. 

Just be ready to see shit tier content for the next year while waiting for them to be right again.

Pseudonym wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 3:35pm:


Wow aren't you a special little snowflake. Hi Welcome. DIAF

Pseudonym wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 3:35pm:


To answer your question - I think they should work the way they are planned.  Creating separate runes is just another unnecessary mechanic.

I agree with Asheras, in that the proposed system doesn't disadvantage multi-boxers, it just does not reward them with runes.  You still get all the other benefits of multi-boxing.

As Asheras outlines, allowing the passing of runes would allow a method to short circuit the intended system and thus would encourage some/many people to do it.  The intention is not to have half the people in a raid being dormant pikers, but active players.  They want people to play together, not milk a system.

I think the system has many advantages (making runes BTA being the main one), although as suggested - would be better if they went straight to toon.

Asheras wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 3:17pm:


How would you define "loot"? My definition would be, "treasure obtained via a chest." These runes are loot in a chest. Is the bastard sword in the same chest loot? What about the gp, pp, gems, scrolls, etc?

I see where you're going with your argument, but I really don't think it's as big a deal as you're making it sound.  Multi-boxers still get chances at raid loot in the chest, and that loot would have a chance to be mythic. What's the big deal of a guy getting a few extra runes to pass to an alt, guildie, or friend? Most PuGs don't have multi-boxers, so I'm assuming the run woulx be channel / guild anyway. They may or may not open it up to a PuG, my experience is most don't.  They go with as many as want to come, complete and move on.

Rastelin wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 5:07pm:


If it works this would be a great system to add to all the older raids.