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Very Hot Topic (More than 75 Replies) So lag better for you guys? (Read 23118 times)
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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #25 - Apr 18th, 2016 at 1:24pm
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Who Cares wrote on Apr 18th, 2016 at 4:52am:
When there are only 12 people left on the server is it still called a PUG?


Ask any Keeper or Devourer survivor... you'll know...
( even if there was still more than 12 active people on the server at hte time of the shutdown, the number was lower than 100 )


  

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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #26 - Apr 18th, 2016 at 1:52pm
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Bigjunk wrote on Apr 17th, 2016 at 1:12pm:
It's been fine in 6-man groups for us on Ghallanda since the last patch.  A little stuttering here and there but nothing infuriating.

Raids . . . LOLz, still unplayable in full groups.

What's it like on other servers?

Ghallanda here.

Ran a few LE To Curse the Sky missions last night.   Multiple 30s+ lag spikes throughout each run, even when short-manning them.  A few near wipes times due to them with an otherwise perfectly capable group.

Ran various other missions this past weekend and many of them had multiple large lag spikes, too.

Objectively, the lag may be slightly less persistent than it was two or three weeks ago but not enough to matter much.  It still makes the game far more irritating than enjoyable for me.

The real question is if the minor (if any) improvement in lag is a result of Turbine's dart throwing or is it a result of reduced load on the server that correlates to more people not logging in and less raids being ran?

Since Turbine has circled the wagons and given virtually no useful details on the problem, it's hard to make even a semi-educated guess in my opinion.
« Last Edit: Apr 18th, 2016 at 1:58pm by Digimonk »  
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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #27 - Apr 18th, 2016 at 4:46pm
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Digimonk wrote on Apr 18th, 2016 at 1:52pm:
Since Turbine has circled the wagons and given virtually no useful details on the problem, it's hard to make even a semi-educated guess in my opinion.


what does this even mean? are you like expecting them to give you specific details regarding the issue so that you can personally speculate on their forum some magic fix no one there was able to prior to your godly intervention nigga please

WE ARE FANS AND WE DEMAND TO SPECULATE

get over yourself if u had ANY self respect or value in real life you wouldnt be here to be affected by this

what kind of person plays a game for 10 years that was shit 10 years ago aside from a fucking invalid

inb4 YOU TOO BRO

i just wanna know what that last line meant like " it's hard to make even a semi-educated guess in my opinion." what does it mean

" it's hard to make even a semi-educated guess in my opinion."

WHAT DOES IT MEAN
  

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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #28 - Apr 18th, 2016 at 5:46pm
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eighnuss wrote on Apr 18th, 2016 at 4:46pm:
what does this even mean? are you like expecting them to give you specific details regarding the issue so that you can personally speculate on their forum some magic fix no one there was able to prior to your godly intervention

While they would certainly open themselves up to speculation, the goal would be to fight the wide and growing perception that they are clueless incompetent clowns bumbling around a problem they don't understand and have no hope of fixing. The "just a glitch, we'll take care of it, don't worry yourself about the details" defence is good for a day or two, a week absolute tops. They are waaaaay past that point. If they weren't too arrogant and stupid to realize it, they'd be in the "grovel for forgiveness and beg your customers not to leave you" phase.

Telling your customers what you've got, what you have tried, and what you are doing next is the only way to restore confidence while you wait for whatever miracle is going to save your ass in June. What we've seen so far is pretty good proof that they have no clue what's going on and don't really care. Giving us all of the details, if they really did support an unforeseeable problem and reasonable steps to fix it, would get a lot of people to give them a second chance. I think that won't happen because they haven't really tried that hard and don't really care much and giving us the details would prove that, but I'm willing to be proven wrong  Roll Eyes

And it's not unthinkable that a customer could help them out. This game is where a lot of very smart and very capable people come to relax. Customers suggesting to Turdbin how to fix their broken shit isn't like a patient telling his doctor how to treat cancer, it's like a successful stock broker telling his bartender how to invest his IRA. They aren't the creme de la creme of the computing world, they are a few young hacks entering assets and making bad changes to somebody else's video game. They could use the help.
  

Turdbin, keep changing the DDO rules, because McDonalds sold over 200 billion hamburgers by changing the recipe for their Special Sauce every couple of months to keep interest up.
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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #29 - Apr 18th, 2016 at 7:40pm
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Meursault wrote on Apr 18th, 2016 at 5:46pm:
While they would certainly open themselves up to speculation, the goal would be to fight the wide and growing perception that they are clueless incompetent clowns bumbling around a problem they don't understand and have no hope of fixing. The "just a glitch, we'll take care of it, don't worry yourself about the details" defence is good for a day or two, a week absolute tops. They are waaaaay past that point. If they weren't too arrogant and stupid to realize it, they'd be in the "grovel for forgiveness and beg your customers not to leave you" phase.

Telling your customers what you've got, what you have tried, and what you are doing next is the only way to restore confidence while you wait for whatever miracle is going to save your ass in June. What we've seen so far is pretty good proof that they have no clue what's going on and don't really care. Giving us all of the details, if they really did support an unforeseeable problem and reasonable steps to fix it, would get a lot of people to give them a second chance. I think that won't happen because they haven't really tried that hard and don't really care much and giving us the details would prove that, but I'm willing to be proven wrong  Roll Eyes


Have they tried hiring somebody who has the technical ability to fix the problem?  I don't think telling players the random shots in the dark they've tried to fix lag will inspire confidence.
  
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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #30 - Apr 19th, 2016 at 12:36am
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AtomicMew wrote on Apr 18th, 2016 at 7:40pm:
Have they tried hiring somebody who has the technical ability to fix the problem?  I don't think telling players the random shots in the dark they've tried to fix lag will inspire confidence. 


Too radical.

Sev's brother's cousin's sister once had a PC, so they've called her a few times to figure out how to do "cold reboots".
So far no luck, but they'll keep trying.
  
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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #31 - Apr 19th, 2016 at 3:13am
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AtomicMew wrote on Apr 18th, 2016 at 7:40pm:
Have they tried hiring somebody who has the technical ability to fix the problem?  I don't think telling players the random shots in the dark they've tried to fix lag will inspire confidence. 

Heh, there is actually a thread on the motherboards with that same suggestion.

The problem being that it's too late for such a measure, and they didn't have the forethought to take that step before the DC move.

The time needed to advertise for the temp positions, vet resumes, interview, hire, get the noobs familiar with the environment, and finally put them to work would be on the order of months, not days.  And that assumes that they hired people with the right skills.  Their last attempt, which did seem to improve things, seemed to be all about the VMs.  If they hired a bunch of network people or coders they would have a bunch of temps standing around saying "I don't know VMs."

What they should have done, and maybe did do, is to purchase the best support contract with their VM vendor, and then lean on them heavily to provide assistance, advice, and guidance.  Since that was the major change with the DC move it would be the best bang for the buck.

Found it: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/474575-A-plea-to-Severlin

Quote:
From a business stand point, it might not be a terrible thing to consider bringing a high tech savvy team in to help combat the problem.
« Last Edit: Apr 19th, 2016 at 3:15am by Frank »  

No, let me be Frank.

Digimonk wrote on Dec 8th, 2016 at 12:39pm:
I've had multiple RoSS rot just from doing the explorer points in Sands across multiple lives since it is exclusive.


Smart players know how to use buyback.

Digimonk wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 1:58pm:
I will not chone.

I did what I did intentionally and while my primary purpose was not to annoy the other Vaulties, I acknowledge that it was a side effect.


Smart people don't elicit "side effects."  They understand in advance the consequences of their actions.
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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #32 - Apr 19th, 2016 at 4:55am
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Frank wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 3:13am:
Heh, there is actually a thread on the motherboards with that same suggestion.

The problem being that it's too late for such a measure, and they didn't have the forethought to take that step before the DC move.

The time needed to advertise for the temp positions, vet resumes, interview, hire, get the noobs familiar with the environment, and finally put them to work would be on the order of months, not days.  And that assumes that they hired people with the right skills.  Their last attempt, which did seem to improve things, seemed to be all about the VMs.  If they hired a bunch of network people or coders they would have a bunch of temps standing around saying "I don't know VMs."

What they should have done, and maybe did do, is to purchase the best support contract with their VM vendor, and then lean on them heavily to provide assistance, advice, and guidance.  Since that was the major change with the DC move it would be the best bang for the buck.

Found it: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/474575-A-plea-to-Severlin



Interesting perspective on the soln.
There is an alternative.
Hire an IT consultant - a tech head, not a salesperson.
No job interviews, resumes or other BS. 
Consultants don't need familiarisation courses, hand holding or free bagel days.   Good consultants arrive, assess, do the job and leave.  No BS.

Do some research.  Hire someone competent (hint: they don't charge $10/hr) and make them responsible for fixing it (unlike the muppets they hired to do the forum downgrade).

Ironically, I suspect a decent proportion of the Vault would be qualified to do it.


You're talking days to weeks - not months.  You might need to pay $1k-$2k per day, but you get your business back up and running before it dies completely.

Costs less in the long run, and you don't need to employ them.

Or use them whilst you recruit a decent network engineer to take over once the immediate problem is fixed.
  
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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #33 - Apr 19th, 2016 at 5:20am
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Current total population is less now compared to what we had during the peak years of 2010/11, on a single high-population shard. It wasn't much laggier back then compared to before the datacentre move.
IMO, it might be better to put all accounts on one modern "server" without any virtualisation.

When you have server lag on Wayfinder, population has nothing to do with the lag. The issue is probably related to running 8 VMs on one piece of hardware.
  
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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #34 - Apr 19th, 2016 at 5:21am
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Meursault wrote on Apr 18th, 2016 at 5:46pm:
And it's not unthinkable that a customer could help them out.


Except that for Turbine it is unthinkable.  Only they understand their unique environment of information being stored on computers and accessed and manipulated concurrently by remote customers.  Nobody else has ever done anything like it.

Even if they could accept the possibility of a customer's input being helpful, to which customer would there listen?  Qualhor?  Kawai?
  

Groo The Wanderer wrote on Sep 8th, 2013 at 10:43pm:
they will probably congratulate themselves on how long they "kept it going" never able to see that it could have easily managed to keep itself going for far longer if they had just meddled far less drastically and with some semblance of an actual gameplan.
Darth Anonymous wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 1:11pm:
Hearing something has "merit" but we don't have "time" kind of says everything about how Turbine works on things.
eighnuss wrote on May 27th, 2014 at 12:52pm:
everyone but turbine knows that we are sad they are destroying our game
majmalphunktion wrote on Aug 30th, 2013 at 12:12am:
I don't make the game, I just get tested what they build. Sorry you are not happy.
Skoodge wrote on Nov 27th, 2014 at 6:54am:
DDO is easy to summarize - the greatest game to suck the most ass.
GooFY wrote on Mar 2nd, 2015 at 5:36pm:
Turbine - So incompetent that we are skeptical when they report their own incompetence.  
Meursault wrote on May 11th, 2015 at 8:10pm:
Other companies will settle for shitting out garbage, Turdbin actually prefers to. Especially if they can get us to buy it, that just cracks them up.
Meursault wrote on Nov 12th, 2015 at 2:50pm:
Breaking something and putting it back together isn't as good as not breaking it to begin with, it's not even close.
palmer01 wrote on Nov 20th, 2015 at 9:05am:
Devs do not care what players want - they already have an agenda and give out token gestures so the paladins can feel worthy.
PersonaNonGrata wrote on Oct 4th, 2016 at 1:24am:
The DDO devs aren't motivated by a positive user experience.

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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #35 - Apr 19th, 2016 at 8:36am
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OldCoaly wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 5:21am:
Except that for Turbine it is unthinkable.  Only they understand their unique environment of information being stored on computers and accessed and manipulated concurrently by remote customers.  Nobody else has ever done anything like it.

Even if they could accept the possibility of a customer's input being helpful, to which customer would there listen?  Qualhor?  Kawai?

LOL, obviously they didn't get the Alice Corp v. CLS Bank memo. We need New Egg lawyers to swoop in and save us  Grin
  

Turdbin, keep changing the DDO rules, because McDonalds sold over 200 billion hamburgers by changing the recipe for their Special Sauce every couple of months to keep interest up.
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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #36 - Apr 19th, 2016 at 8:50am
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AtomicMew wrote on Apr 18th, 2016 at 7:40pm:
Have they tried hiring somebody who has the technical ability to fix the problem?  I don't think telling players the random shots in the dark they've tried to fix lag will inspire confidence. 

I agree. Like I said, I don't think they take it seriously or have tried very hard, and releasing details would prove it. I was just pointing out that the release of details could have a goal other than a customer solving their problems for them.
  

Turdbin, keep changing the DDO rules, because McDonalds sold over 200 billion hamburgers by changing the recipe for their Special Sauce every couple of months to keep interest up.
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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #37 - Apr 19th, 2016 at 9:17am
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DropBear wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 4:55am:
Interesting perspective on the soln.
There is an alternative.
Hire an IT consultant - a tech head, not a salesperson.
No job interviews, resumes or other BS. 
Consultants don't need familiarisation courses, hand holding or free bagel days.   Good consultants arrive, assess, do the job and leave.  No BS.

Do some research.  Hire someone competent (hint: they don't charge $10/hr) and make them responsible for fixing it (unlike the muppets they hired to do the forum downgrade).

Ironically, I suspect a decent proportion of the Vault would be qualified to do it.


You're talking days to weeks - not months.  You might need to pay $1k-$2k per day, but you get your business back up and running before it dies completely.

Costs less in the long run, and you don't need to employ them.

Or use them whilst you recruit a decent network engineer to take over once the immediate problem is fixed.

This!

There are tons of great consultants in the Boston area, they could bring in top talent on short notice and without paying overnight stay and airfare premiums.

But that would still involve admitting Turdbin wasn't a unique snowflake, so it won't happen.

Maybe Frank's explanation of the delays is why we heard the June timeframe. Or maybe that's when Sev's younger brother graduates from trade school with his computer repair training and can start full time  Cheesy

(For those not familiar with the US education system, trade school is education for teenagers who do not plan to attend a university. Students focus on learning a trade like automobile repair, carpentry, computer repair, etc. Hiring a recent grad from this program for a problem like Turdbin has now would be like asking a pre-med student to seperate conjoined twins.)
  

Turdbin, keep changing the DDO rules, because McDonalds sold over 200 billion hamburgers by changing the recipe for their Special Sauce every couple of months to keep interest up.
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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #38 - Apr 19th, 2016 at 1:03pm
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DropBear wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 4:55am:
Ironically, I suspect a decent proportion of the Vault would be qualified to do it.


And the worst is that some of us would do it for free ( well maybe a lifetime account or two... From Turbine's point of view that's basically free ).

*jump back into the IP architeture for the real-time prepaid system overhaul of a French Telecom Operator...... how in hell am I going to convince them that sending the SNMP traps to Romania will require that they bypass the proxy they have put in place at the end of our L2L IPSEC/VPN ? *

  

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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #39 - Apr 19th, 2016 at 3:36pm
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eighnuss wrote on Apr 18th, 2016 at 4:46pm:
i just wanna know what that last line meant like " it's hard to make even a semi-educated guess in my opinion." what does it mean

" it's hard to make even a semi-educated guess in my opinion."

WHAT DOES IT MEAN

Is English a second language, did you just have a stroke or are you just an angry, internet-tough-guy idiot?  It's hard to tell based on your poorly written post.  I feel sorry for you and will break down the line in question into small parts so you can comprehend it.

"it's hard" in this context indicates that *it* is not easy.  An example would be your relationship with reading comprehension... it's hard.

"to make" indicates the action of making something.  In this case, when modified by the phrase "it's hard", it indicates that making something is a challenge.  For example, it's hard to make sense of your post because it is so poorly written.

"even" in this context is an adverb that provides emphasis on the "semi-educated" portion of the sentence.  For example, I suspect you are an even bigger jackass online than you might be in person.

"semi-educated" is an adjective that modifies the meaning of the word guess.  It indicates incomplete knowledge or learning.  For example, your posting style makes you appear to be only semi-educated.

"in my opinion" means that the preceding part of the sentence is just my opinion.  Take the following example:  In my opinion, you are gay and retarded.

Taken as a whole, the line in question refers to the sentence preceding it where I posed the question of whether the improvements in lag are from Turbine's *fixes* or simply a result of decreased load on the world servers due to people quitting.  It indicates that I think that question is hard to answer since Turbine refuses to provide details about the problem.

« Last Edit: Apr 19th, 2016 at 3:40pm by Digimonk »  
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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #40 - Apr 19th, 2016 at 7:56pm
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Dude made a Vault account, named it "eighnuss", and has been talking out of it.

I think he's familiar with English. And better at the subtle bits than you are.
  

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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #41 - Apr 19th, 2016 at 9:38pm
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Revaulting wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 7:56pm:
Dude made a Vault account, named it "eighnuss", and has been talking out of it.

I think he's familiar with English. And better at the subtle bits than you are.

Going by just his name, sure.   Looking at the junk he puked all over that post, not so much.
  
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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #42 - Apr 19th, 2016 at 10:00pm
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Revaulting wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 7:56pm:
Dude made a Vault account, named it "eighnuss", and has been talking out of it.

I think he's familiar with English. And better at the subtle bits than you are.

Damn it, I hate it when I not only miss a joke, but don't even realize there was a joke to miss. Well done, Eighnuss, it's clear but I missed it for ages  Angry
  

Turdbin, keep changing the DDO rules, because McDonalds sold over 200 billion hamburgers by changing the recipe for their Special Sauce every couple of months to keep interest up.
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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #43 - Apr 19th, 2016 at 10:07pm
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Meursault wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 10:00pm:
Eighnuss, it's clear butt. I missed it for ages 

Grin
  

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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #44 - Apr 20th, 2016 at 6:20am
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eighnuss wrote on Apr 18th, 2016 at 4:46pm:
what does this even mean? are you like expecting them to give you specific details regarding the issue so that you can personally speculate on their forum some magic fix no one there was able to prior to your godly intervention nigga please

WE ARE FANS AND WE DEMAND TO SPECULATE

get over yourself if u had ANY self respect or value in real life you wouldnt be here to be affected by this

what kind of person plays a game for 10 years that was shit 10 years ago aside from a fucking invalid

inb4 YOU TOO BRO

i just wanna know what that last line meant like " it's hard to make even a semi-educated guess in my opinion." what does it mean

" it's hard to make even a semi-educated guess in my opinion."

WHAT DOES IT MEAN


Eloquently said as usual...

In the PR world, you can either be reactive, proactive or Turdbine (ie. stick your head up your ass and hope it all goes away).

In the absence of clear comms and the impression that it is under control, people will speculate negatively regardless.
Communicating with your customers takes away some of the uncertainty.  Of course some will still bitch and whinge.
But you'd rather people be speculating constructively than what you have now.

But you know what Digi meant - you're just being a dick.


eighnuss wrote on Apr 18th, 2016 at 4:46pm:
what kind of person plays a game for 10 years that was shit 10 years ago aside from a fucking invalid

Why you here then bro?
  
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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #45 - Apr 20th, 2016 at 6:50am
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Digimonk wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 3:36pm:
Is English a second language, did you just have a stroke or are you just an angry, internet-tough-guy idiot?  It's hard to tell based on your poorly written post.  I feel sorry for you and will break down the line in question into small parts so you can comprehend it.

"it's hard" in this context indicates that *it* is not easy.  An example would be your relationship with reading comprehension... it's hard.

"to make" indicates the action of making something.  In this case, when modified by the phrase "it's hard", it indicates that making something is a challenge.  For example, it's hard to make sense of your post because it is so poorly written.

"even" in this context is an adverb that provides emphasis on the "semi-educated" portion of the sentence.  For example, I suspect you are an even bigger jackass online than you might be in person.

"semi-educated" is an adjective that modifies the meaning of the word guess.  It indicates incomplete knowledge or learning.  For example, your posting style makes you appear to be only semi-educated.

"in my opinion" means that the preceding part of the sentence is just my opinion.  Take the following example:  In my opinion, you are gay and retarded.

Taken as a whole, the line in question refers to the sentence preceding it where I posed the question of whether the improvements in lag are from Turbine's *fixes* or simply a result of decreased load on the world servers due to people quitting.  It indicates that I think that question is hard to answer since Turbine refuses to provide details about the problem.



So now that youve helped define the context of your initial statement, lets read into your self-importance a bit:

"it's hard" in this context indicates that *it* is not easy. 

"to make" indicates the action of making something.  In this case, when modified by the phrase "it's hard", it indicates that making something is a challenge.

"even" in this context is an adverb that provides emphasis on the "semi-educated" portion of the sentence.

"semi-educated" is an adjective that modifies the meaning of the word guess. 

"in my opinion" means that the preceding part of the sentence is just my opinion.

So its pretty clear that you are trying to relay to us that:

in your humble opinion, there is difficulty involved in speculating, not just possibilities, but also unlikely probabillities, regarding the internal issues in a privately owned intelliectual property that you have absolutely no legal reason to be involved with on such a level.

this implies you believe you are entitled to some kind of access to knowledge of the issues, participation in the troubleshooting of said issues, and finally credit for resolving said issues after you personally grace us with the resolution that no one but you can perceive. all under the umbrella of "your opinion," of course. If "Turbine had circled the wagons and given virtually no useful details on the problem" at me, id be just as offended as you are at my sudden inability and denial of my speculative rights as a long time player of this game. I'm very glad they chose to circle the wagons at you and not me, and now that I understand where you are coming from i respectfully withdraw all my opinions of your gay and retarded status.

I cannot believe they did not give you a direct feed to internal updates so that you can speculate hard as fuck, the absolute nerve of them- thank you for clarifying what you were actually trying to say without all that wall of text obfuscation

im sorry you got circled by wagons bro i apologize for my inability to realize your position

DropBear wrote on Apr 20th, 2016 at 6:20am:
Why you here then bro?


eighnuss wrote on Apr 18th, 2016 at 4:46pm:
inb4 YOU TOO BRO



my face when i am always pre-emptively correct

  

͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊͊DISCLAIMER: This post is provided �as is� for informational purposes only. The Department of Vault
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Dispel
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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #46 - Apr 20th, 2016 at 7:19am
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You mad bro?
  

Best Troll eva' Niggas!
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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #47 - Apr 20th, 2016 at 8:09am
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youre mom
  

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Bigdickrichguy
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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #48 - Apr 20th, 2016 at 12:27pm
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NERD FIGHT
  

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Re: So lag better for you guys?
Reply #49 - Apr 20th, 2016 at 1:40pm
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eighnuss wrote on Apr 20th, 2016 at 6:50am:
in your humble opinion, there is difficulty involved in speculating, not just possibilities, but also unlikely probabillities, regarding the internal issues in a privately owned intelliectual property that you have absolutely no legal reason to be involved with on such a level.

this implies you believe you are entitled to some kind of access to knowledge of the issues, participation in the troubleshooting of said issues, and finally credit for resolving said issues after you personally grace us with the resolution that no one but you can perceive. all under the umbrella of "your opinion," of course. If "Turbine had circled the wagons and given virtually no useful details on the problem" at me, id be just as offended as you are at my sudden inability and denial of my speculative rights as a long time player of this game. I'm very glad they chose to circle the wagons at you and not me, and now that I understand where you are coming from i respectfully withdraw all my opinions of your gay and retarded status.

I cannot believe they did not give you a direct feed to internal updates so that you can speculate hard as fuck, the absolute nerve of them- thank you for clarifying what you were actually trying to say without all that wall of text obfuscation

im sorry you got circled by wagons bro i apologize for my inability to realize your position



As Dropbear pointed out, you're being intentionally obtuse and it just makes you look like an immature dick.  If that's your goal, have at it.
  
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