PersonaNonGrata wrote on May 26
th, 2016 at 2:52am:
I disagree with this statement. You're saying that your 4hp first level wizard with one spell per day is superior in every way to a 1st fighter?
That wizard can cast one spell per day. The fighter can attack hundreds of times per day, and wear heavy armour to mitigate damage.
Yes, because you have your facts wrong.
The Wizard has an 18 or 20 Int, because of point buy (just like in DDO) and a much wider racial option base. The Wizard doesn't have one spell, he has 3 0 level spells and 2 1st level spells, or if at 20 Int 3 and 3. And since he is a specialist he has 4 and 3 or 4 and 4.
The game is balanced around 3 combats per day. So even the 18 Int Wizard can cast a cantrip and a 1st level spell in each combat, or adjust as they see fit. And those spells are far more effective than the martial classes. Sleep takes out 4 HD of creatures all at once. The 1st level Fighter will be lucky to kill 4 HD of creatures over time without taking a significant amount of damage. Unless they come at him in martial arts movie style, one at a time... Grease, Obscuring Mist, Charm Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, Expeditious Retreat, and others are also quite potent. Of the Cantrips Daze and Touch of Fatigue are nice.
You might notice that I didn't list a single Evocation spell. That's because while a Wizard can do damage, they are far better off just taking out opponents with Sleep and the like, or debuffing them for the martial classes or themselves to polish off with ease.
At 1st level the Fighter or other martial class has an entire 1 BAB advantage over the Wizard. So the Wizard is shooting a bow (Elf) or using some other ranged weapon with almost the exact same proficiency as the martial classes, while looking for the need to cast a spell.
Quote:This is a problem at the higher levels for sure, but your example implies the whole range is affected.
That's because it is. It just becomes more easy to see at higher levels.
Quote:Another part of your analysis I disagree with is the class vs class comparison. DnD is intended as a party based game, that can be played solo.
And that is why I didn't go into a class vs. class comparison. If you want to talk PvP then the arcane classes are even more clearly dominant right from 1st level.
Quote:As a GM, I discouraged individual players from trying to dominate and solo everything and you can encourage that behaviour through good challenge design. Everyone has their time to shine, may not be every quest, but you ensure the martial classes get to utilise their strengths too.
Now see right here you are conceding the point. You had to 'encourage' the casters to allow the martials their time to shine. If you had a player who decided they were just bored waiting for the martials to shine and dominated in all encounters you had only two options: Kick them out of your group, or cheat against them. Because as the rules are written they could do just that and you'd have no recourse.
Quote:How do this happen in PnP?
At 20th level a wizard can cast four 7th level spells per day?
Wizards can get extra spells from specialisation and high INT, but that is hardly being able to FoD all day long?
Yes, all day long for all practical purposes. Again, the game is designed for three encounters per day. And again, your spell count is incorrect. By 20th level the Wizard has a 24+ due to leveling stats and and that nice Int item that they can make themselves at that point, and casts 5 or more 7th level spells per day, 6 as a specialist.
So at least 2 FoD per encounter, plus of course the massive number of spells of levels 1-6 that they have memorized. And scrolls, due to the 1st level free feat of Scribe Scroll.
Some people see this and go "Aha! I'll just throw a few more encounters at them, that'll show those pesky casters and their limited number of spells!"
No, all that does is kill your martials off. They are the ones with no access to healing spells, they are the ones without magical means to escape. Martials will always have fewer
options in an encounter than a caster. And options are not only fun, they are survivability. The smart Wizard uses that 1st level free feat of Scribe scroll and is never without an option. The Fighter can swing a sword, or shoot a bow. But only one well. If overwhelmed, the Fighter has to run, the Wizard not only is not slowed down by armor but can cast Expeditious Retreat for an additional 30' movement. Or Fly. Or Dimension Door. Or Invisibility. Or a host of other
options.
Any attempts to tweak the average encounters per day only hurts the martials more than the casters.
And sure, the martials can also get magic items that allow them weightless armor, or Fly, or other effects. But that just lets them be useful in a fight. Without them most fights at higher levels would see them standing or moving around ineffectively while the casters did all the winning.
Quote:Yes, what is your point?
A developer planning a quest for an MMO needs to plan very carefully and test it thoroughly. I don't see how this point makes the use of PnP rules in DDO invalid?
My point, which I thought I made fairly clearly, is that the DM basically need to coddle the martials in order to allow them to contribute. If he does not, they will eventually feel rather like third wheels to the spell casters. And as I also said, if the casters are challenged then the martials either can't contribute much or just die.
Quote:We get the bosses loot in every chest we pull in DDO. I don't hear anyone complaining that the sword, armour, ring and potions he was using against us is not in the end chest? The players can learn to accept some things.
You're talking about cheating now. Buffing the opponents saving throws to keep the casters from dominating but not having those buffs equate to the items that they should as treasure. Which I have allowed is a valid way to try to balance PnP 3.5. But it's still cheating, and by resorting to this you are conceding the point that the casters are dominant and the martials need help to contribute.
Quote:I'm not arguing that any edition of DnD was perfect, but 3.5 was the zenith in my opinion.
Sure if you incorporated all the reference material, it became a friggin mess and balance was easily messed up unless you were very careful.
This is another false conclusion: That the core rule books were balanced and that only by allowing the mass of source books did the game get out of hand. It is not accurate. Core 3.5 is just as unbalanced, and playing a 'core only' campaign is not a solution to the problem. Because the problem starts with core and only gets worse from there. Plus a lot of the splat books, such as The Complete Warrior, offer martial classes that aren't gimped right from character creation.
WeHaveLived wrote on May 26
th, 2016 at 1:41pm:
lol, show me where the big bad 3.5E touched you on the doll.
I can't. I play casters, we have spells against that.
But that doesn't mean I don't feel sorry for the poor fool who picks Fighter, Monk, etc. at character creation.