slowertraffic wrote on Aug 25^th, 2016 at 10:41am:


Easier said than done.  They would have to maintain old essences and new in the loot tables.  Your character sheet would need to be modified to have a tab for old crafting levels and new crafting levels that are maintained independently.  Right now, all your old xp is converted to new and the new is all that they have to deal with.  How do they handle that if they keep the old?

I think it is possible to do, but it would have needed to be in the design spec from the beginning.  Adding it now, and the corresponding systems work, is unrealistic.  Altering the recipe costs to make effect shards more affordable and making higher level ML shards more expensive is a much simpler change that would make low level loot accessible.

Asheras wrote on Aug 25^th, 2016 at 9:42am:


Well the issues play together.  The 100 fort item now costs 2 PEDs.  This amount you can get while reasonably low level, and if you're clued in early enough or you're an experienced player on a new server or whatever you can probably do this by 7th level when you can actually wear the item.

NewCC charges 5 PEDs for the same effect.  That 2.5x cost of a rare ingredient pushes the possibility of making the item by the time you can use it well off.

Here's the cost according to the planner:

Effect: Defense: Fortification
Bound info: CC level = 1, Essence cost = 10, Page Torn from a Research Notebook = 15, Small Wooden Idol = 5

Effect: Defense: Insightful Fortification
Bound info: CC level = 175, Essence cost = 175, P.Eberron Dragonshard = 5, Ruddy Fungus = 15, Silver Bowl = 5

All of that stuff is fairly trivial except for the PEDs.  Even the Silver Bowls and Small Wooden Idols are only a Tier2 collectables and so are fairly common and can be bought on the AH or gifted by/bought from a guildmate.

Who Cares wrote on Aug 25^th, 2016 at 11:58am:


Well as long as you're using anecdotes...  So you take your car to the shop and they say it needs a new transmission.  You're driving an automatic and ask if a manual can be put in.  "Sure thing," says the mechanic.  "Well, just leave in the automatic in case I might want to use it sometime."  Your costs just went up 1000x, and most of that is because the mechanic knows he has an idiot on his hands.

Leaving in the old system is possible.  Is it easy?  Would they need to add an entirely new set of machines?  Would they have to add a drop down to the existing machines asking if you want to use OldCC or NewCC every single time you go to use one?  Somehow they have to make the option available.  And now you've got two systems that new player have to try to figure out.  Two sets of skills to work on, two systems to craft in.  Two completely different sets of recipes.  And two lists of effects which can be crafted.

It would be a mess, and replacing the system entirely is really the way to do it right.  That said, there are ways to replace the system entirely that don't make the cost 2.5x PEDs over the old system cost for anything you might want to make in the new system.  There are ways to replace the system entirely while retaining the flexibility of the old system.  It could be done in a better way then just pointing to 3 effects and saying "See?  Power creep!  That's what makes a system good!"

Frank wrote on Aug 24^th, 2016 at 11:38pm:

A month to get 1k rems... so you really are on the Fran plan.   Thanks for clarifying.  Jesus... it must have taken you a damned year to get enough ingredients and level your crafting skills high enough to actually make heavy fort and masterful craftsmanship items.

I think your drops per dungeon estimate is low.  Mid level heroic elite missions seem to be the sweet spot for completion times vs champion density.  I'll assume it's accurate though.

It should take about 10-15 minutes tops to clear a mid-heroics dungeon at or under level, less if you're in a decent group instead of soloing.  20 rems per dungeon at 15 minutes per dungeon gives 1.3333 rems per minute.  That's 12.5 hours for 1k remnants.   Nowhere near as bad as you made it out to be, especially considering that you're getting 12.5 hours of mission completions, XP and loot in addition to the remnants during that time instead of dicking around with crafting, deconning loot for essences, etc.

Regarding new players specifically, the time and resource investment required to level CC crafting in the current system is just as unfriendly towards a new player as it will be in the new system.  Newbies don't have hundreds of thousands of plat to spare, they don't have a stockpile of essences and rare ingredients.  Additionally, deconning lower level RNG items gives so few essences that it isn't worth the time it takes.  New players would be much better off to ignore crafting and focus on leveling to epics where the RNG items give much larger amounts of essences when deconned.  They also would likely still lack enough game knowledge to know what's worth crafting at level 7 and what isn't.

Last but not least, I'm glad you have your fortification needs taken care of.  Do you want a cookie or something?

Asheras wrote on Aug 25^th, 2016 at 12:57pm:


You missed my whole point. It really had nothing to do with CC and your points for this are valid. But I swear every fucking time someone on the MOBO's makes a suggestion there are the people that talk about how hard it is to code things. How hot and sweaty they get at turbine trying to do things, I think that might be more pac man LARP than coding.

Vaultaccount wrote on Aug 25^th, 2016 at 7:15pm:

Actually, my estimate was based on how many rems I tend to get while rolling through quests for XP and leveling after a TR.  I have never actively farmed just for remnants.

I assumed that most people who TR and are leveling back up understand that you should do quest at or slightly below level to maximize your XP due to first time completion and bravery bonuses.

Asheras wrote on Aug 25^th, 2016 at 12:57pm:


Your analogy really sux.
I fell asleep half way thru.   

Bathroom remodelling?  Haven't got anything a bit punchier and to the point?
Besides, I liked Who Cares' car analogy.
That sounds much more like Turbine to me.

Haven't played as long as you guys, but I've read "too hard" a lot from the devs in DDO, who are a precious bunch.
Never seen it much from other game developers.

Digimonk wrote on Aug 25^th, 2016 at 6:10pm:

Yeah, all the time I wasted melting items for essences and my crafting is still not capped.  I clearly do not play DDO as often as you, or for as much time per play session.  But that doesn't bother me at all.

I was amused by your "mid level heroics is the sweet spot for remnants" thing though.  It's retarded drooling idiot statements like this by people like you with tin foil hat theories about how things work in the game that make these boards worthwhile.

You keep a stable of characters at whatever you're calling 'mid-level heroics' in order to try to farm remnants?  I just play the damn game and let the remnants come as they will.  Before I know it I'm above whatever you're calling 'mid-level heroics' and on to my next life.

The Vault. Making Turbine feel better about itself. That would be a first.

Frank wrote on Aug 26^th, 2016 at 6:54am:

And you say I have poor reading comprehension...  I know you're on the Fran(k) plan but please try to keep up.  I've previously stated at least once that I have never actively farmed remnants.

I have one toon I play 99% of the time with some bank mules and two dusty, unused, first life alts lvl 15 and 22 respectively from when I first started playing DDO before rolling the character that is now my main.

Regarding mid-level heroics being the sweet spot, the key things to keep in mind regarding remnant drops are the following (from the Wiki):

• Since Update 27 Hotfix, Mysterious Remnants have a (reduced) chance to appear for characters that are up to two levels above the level of the quest.
• Monster Champions (and remnants) do not appear in quests under a difficulty-modified quest level of 5.
• Monster Champions (and remnants) do not appear on casual or normal difficulty.
• Monster Champions (and remnants) do not appear in raids.

Mid-level heroics are the sweet spot because:

• Level 5-15 heroic missions are stupidly due to the power creep from class passes and new gear.
• Mid-level heroic mobs noticeably lower relative HPs than mobs in upper heroics and epics, thus your mob kill rate is generally higher.
• They can be steamrolled quickly on elite difficulty at or below level while leveling a TR'd toon.  A lot of builds that steamroll heroics become less overpowered in epics, especially while refilling karma in an off destiny.

Care to detail the depth of your experience with remnants beyond taking a month to get 1k?  Care to list the reasons you think lower and mid-level heroics are not the easiest and fastest range to get remnants?  All I've seen from you so far is "remnants suck, crafting is better, durrr durrr durrr" regardless of evidence provided that using named gear and augments is comparable and possibly easier than crafting.

I have been max level in all three Cannith Crafting spheres for almost two years and have crafted many items for my and my guildies' TRs.  I am fully aware of the time and resources it took to level crafting and acquire the ingredients necessary for heavy fortification.  Yes, I even crafted a couple of heavy fortification items. 

If you add up the time you took to loot thousands of essences, decon hundreds of items (with lag), level crafting, acquire the PEDs, and what you could have chosen instead of tomes for PED trade-ins, you could have easily gained a few more levels, leveled your guild, acquired 1k remnants, and run an extra story arc or two for a blue-slot reward much quicker.

Additionally, in my experience, using PEDs for heavy fortification is a sucker's trap given all the other things PEDs can be used for and when it is so easy to get via augs and named items.  The long-term cost of using those PEDs to craft fortification will be even higher once PEDs are required for some of the better effects in the new crafting system. I'm glad I saved mine.  To each their own though.

Anyway, as Revaulting stated, we're just two idiots going in circles.  I'm done.  There's more than enough opinions, debate and actual information in this thread for everybody to make an informed decision on their own.  May you enjoy happy heavy fort crafting the rest of your DDO days Fran(k).  

Frank wrote on Aug 27^th, 2016 at 1:30am:


You know Fran, if you spent as much time playing the game as you did crying about how fucking gimp you are, maybe you would have more shit.

Seriously, who the fuck needs lore items, or even fucking fortification at level 7. What a fucking gimp.

I take that shit from the korthos end rewards and roll that shit for about 10 levels, raping the game along the way until I can get the good shit from my TR bank.

TL:DR -> get gud noob

Hey this is getting interesting now.
We've devolved into name calling and insults!
About damn time it got spicy and entertaining!   

Frank wrote on Aug 28^th, 2016 at 9:46am:


It is not a reading comprehension fail, it is a giving a shit fail. I just don't care, I am not so hung up on something as marginally useful as canith crafting as you are.

by the way I see no meaningful difference between you and Fran.

You're both irrelevant, and actually, you have made someone who is irrelevant, relevant, simply by being so irrelevant yourself.

Frank wrote on Aug 28^th, 2016 at 9:46am:


Hey leave me out of this.