Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 Send TopicPrint
Normal Topic Change to stealth in reaper? (Read 2395 times)
Asheras
Completionist (i.t.p.)
******
Offline


This is why we can't have
nice things.

Posts: 10230
Location: Ohio
Joined: Jun 9th, 2010
Gender: Male
Change to stealth in reaper?
Apr 25th, 2018 at 4:03pm
Print Post  
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/495926-Abhorrent-response-from-the-dev...

Quote:
Our current thought - which totally needs vetting and testing - is maybe Reapers are changed to have Detect Invisibility plus a huge Spot and Listen instead of the detection method they use now, and somewhere in their tree Assassins get to activate a short but huge bonus to Move Silently and Hide in Shadows so they can position for an Assassinate but not just stealth by as the buff will wear off. But that might not be something that works well in testing.

Sev~
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nokowi
Korthos Resident
*
Offline


I Love Drama!

Posts: 17
Joined: Apr 21st, 2018
Re: Change to stealth in reaper?
Reply #1 - Apr 25th, 2018 at 4:48pm
Print Post  
Asheras wrote on Apr 25th, 2018 at 4:03pm:
Our current thought - which totally needs vetting and testing - is maybe Reapers are changed to have Detect Invisibility plus a huge Spot and Listen instead of the detection method they use now, and somewhere in their tree Assassins get to activate a short but huge bonus to Move Silently and Hide in Shadows so they can position for an Assassinate but not just stealth by as the buff will wear off. But that might not be something that works well in testing.


Being able to sneak up on reapers isn't really the issue.  It's much more how they share information with the rest of the mobs.

It seems like an implementation where reapers auto spot you (or very high opposed roll) but don't alert the rest of the mobs until you leave stealth (or some specified period of time to react) would be better implementation.

Devs may some day decide to eliminate easy ways to remove reapers (charm, etc), and thinking ahead saves dev effort.

I'm not sure they understand all the issues from their responses (most issues are not reaper related) , but then again I've been away for a bit so there is room for misunderstanding on my end.
« Last Edit: Apr 25th, 2018 at 5:33pm by nokowi »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Asheras
Completionist (i.t.p.)
******
Offline


This is why we can't have
nice things.

Posts: 10230
Location: Ohio
Joined: Jun 9th, 2010
Gender: Male
Re: Change to stealth in reaper?
Reply #2 - Apr 25th, 2018 at 5:27pm
Print Post  
nokowi wrote on Apr 25th, 2018 at 4:48pm:
Being able to sneak up on reapers isn't really the issue.  It's much more how they share information with the rest of the mobs.

It seems like an implementation where reapers auto spot you (or very high opposed roll) but don't alert the rest of the mobs until you leave stealth (or some specified period of time to react) would be better implementation.

Devs made some day decide to eliminate easy ways to remove reapers (charm, etc), and thinking ahead saves dev effort.

I'm not sure they understand all the issues from their responses (most issues are not reaper related) , but then again I've been away for a bit so there is room for misunderstanding on my end.


They are talking about un-doing the tremor sense that reapers have.  Currently, that makes stealth useless anytime a reaper is present.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nokowi
Korthos Resident
*
Offline


I Love Drama!

Posts: 17
Joined: Apr 21st, 2018
Re: Change to stealth in reaper?
Reply #3 - Apr 25th, 2018 at 5:57pm
Print Post  
Asheras wrote on Apr 25th, 2018 at 5:27pm:
They are talking about un-doing the tremor sense that reapers have.  Currently, that makes stealth useless anytime a reaper is present.


I get it, but giving yet another class an easy way to deal with reapers isn't an optimal solution, and does't solve the agro sharing issues outside of reaper.

Letting the reaper detect you earlier, and fixing the way agro is shared makes a more challenging and interactive experience.  It also encourages roles and group play.

It's something that needs to be done anyway as part of the fixes outside of reaper.
« Last Edit: Apr 25th, 2018 at 5:58pm by nokowi »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Rubbinns
The Undeserving Fuckwit
*
Offline


I Love Drama!

Posts: 10460
Joined: Sep 4th, 2013
Re: Change to stealth in reaper?
Reply #4 - Apr 25th, 2018 at 6:05pm
Print Post  
nokowi wrote on Apr 25th, 2018 at 4:48pm:
It seems like an implementation where reapers auto spot you (or very high opposed roll) but don't alert the rest of the mobs until you leave stealth (or some specified period of time to react) would be better implementation.

they should always alert the group they spawned with. stop being stupid, stupid.
  

Mockduck wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 2:20pm:
I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nokowi
Korthos Resident
*
Offline


I Love Drama!

Posts: 17
Joined: Apr 21st, 2018
Re: Change to stealth in reaper?
Reply #5 - Apr 25th, 2018 at 8:20pm
Print Post  
Rubbinns wrote on Apr 25th, 2018 at 6:05pm:
they should always alert the group they spawned with. stop being stupid, stupid.


Stop trying to use "logic", and think about gameplay. 

Logically, any creature not charmed should immediately attack the caster making their buddies attack them, instead of killing their friends.  Logically, a fireball should AoE on everyone. None of these make good game mechanics.

What's important is challenge and interaction.  The reaper spotting you at extended range, and any attack that hits you removing you from stealth provides just that, knowing that every other mob will then agro on you.

The devs suggested solution is to make you aware of the reaper, let you hit a button (improved hide/ms), and then go cc/(assassinate?) them. That seems like yet another way to have the reaper do very little.
« Last Edit: Apr 25th, 2018 at 8:29pm by nokowi »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Rubbinns
The Undeserving Fuckwit
*
Offline


I Love Drama!

Posts: 10460
Joined: Sep 4th, 2013
Re: Change to stealth in reaper?
Reply #6 - Apr 25th, 2018 at 9:29pm
Print Post  
nokowi wrote on Apr 25th, 2018 at 8:20pm:
Stop trying to use "logic",

my bad.
  

Mockduck wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 2:20pm:
I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Asheras
Completionist (i.t.p.)
******
Offline


This is why we can't have
nice things.

Posts: 10230
Location: Ohio
Joined: Jun 9th, 2010
Gender: Male
Re: Change to stealth in reaper?
Reply #7 - Apr 25th, 2018 at 10:07pm
Print Post  
nokowi wrote on Apr 25th, 2018 at 5:57pm:
I get it, but giving yet another class an easy way to deal with reapers isn't an optimal solution, and does't solve the agro sharing issues outside of reaper.

Letting the reaper detect you earlier, and fixing the way agro is shared makes a more challenging and interactive experience.  It also encourages roles and group play.

It's something that needs to be done anyway as part of the fixes outside of reaper.


They said earlier in the thread they were willing to look at stealth issues in N/H/E earlier in that thread.  But there was a lot of player frustration with not addressing the Reaper specific tremor sense.   That's what the Sev comment is responding to.  I'm not sure it is exclusive of addressing issues that exist with stealth in general in all difficulties. 

Context is important. 


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nokowi
Korthos Resident
*
Offline


I Love Drama!

Posts: 17
Joined: Apr 21st, 2018
Re: Change to stealth in reaper?
Reply #8 - Apr 26th, 2018 at 12:17am
Print Post  
Asheras wrote on Apr 25th, 2018 at 10:07pm:
They said earlier in the thread they were willing to look at stealth issues in N/H/E earlier in that thread.  But there was a lot of player frustration with not addressing the Reaper specific tremor sense.   That's what the Sev comment is responding to.  I'm not sure it is exclusive of addressing issues that exist with stealth in general in all difficulties. 

Context is important. 


The context is they are brainstorming "solutions" to reapers when most of the solutions come from fixing stuff outside of reaper.

You can read about unnecessary design and how assassins don't even want to be to do the things sev suggests - namely assassinate a reaper - on the main forums

You missed the context of what I said earlier, and devs are missing how to approach solutions effectively.  They are absolutely ONLY looking at reaper from their comments so far, which means it is likely they will apply a bandaid instead of coming up with functional fixes.

They might move on to other stuff later, but their approach for reaper won't be well thought out unless they consider the other issues that appear both in and outside of reaper.

Dev attention and design window is VERY small. If they are getting it wrong (they are so far form their comments), they often continue with that track anyway.

Put another way, they have a history of not understanding stealth issues. They won't come up with good solutions until they do.

Letting assassins assassinate a reaper is a "fix" that makes reapers meaningless, even in solo play. If that is their suggestion, you can't possibly think they are doing anything more than removing the challenge of reapers. Their goal should be to make reapers a functional challenge  - I outlined one method that does this.
« Last Edit: Apr 26th, 2018 at 12:36am by nokowi »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Asheras
Completionist (i.t.p.)
******
Offline


This is why we can't have
nice things.

Posts: 10230
Location: Ohio
Joined: Jun 9th, 2010
Gender: Male
Re: Change to stealth in reaper?
Reply #9 - Apr 26th, 2018 at 8:17am
Print Post  
nokowi wrote on Apr 26th, 2018 at 12:17am:
The context is they are brainstorming "solutions" to reapers when most of the solutions come from fixing stuff outside of reaper.

You can read about unnecessary design and how assassins don't even want to be to do the things sev suggests - namely assassinate a reaper - on the main forums

You missed the context of what I said earlier, and devs are missing how to approach solutions effectively.  They are absolutely ONLY looking at reaper from their comments so far, which means it is likely they will apply a bandaid instead of coming up with functional fixes.

They might move on to other stuff later, but their approach for reaper won't be well thought out unless they consider the other issues that appear both in and outside of reaper.

Dev attention and design window is VERY small. If they are getting it wrong (they are so far form their comments), they often continue with that track anyway.

Put another way, they have a history of not understanding stealth issues. They won't come up with good solutions until they do.

Letting assassins assassinate a reaper is a "fix" that makes reapers meaningless, even in solo play. If that is their suggestion, you can't possibly think they are doing anything more than removing the challenge of reapers. Their goal should be to make reapers a functional challenge  - I outlined one method that does this.


You do understand "take out" <> "assassinate", right?

As per typical, you are seeing what you want (or fear) to see and making assumptions that don't exist.

If you have an idea on how to fix stuff in both difficulties then present it in a cogent manner while there is attention on it.  If you can't do that because you are too emotional, then you probably aren't going to get your point across and are just going to get banned again for mouth frothing posts.       
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nokowi
Korthos Resident
*
Offline


I Love Drama!

Posts: 17
Joined: Apr 21st, 2018
Re: Change to stealth in reaper?
Reply #10 - Apr 26th, 2018 at 11:49am
Print Post  
Asheras wrote on Apr 26th, 2018 at 8:17am:
You do understand "take out" <> "assassinate", right?

As per typical, you are seeing what you want (or fear) to see and making assumptions that don't exist.

If you have an idea on how to fix stuff in both difficulties then present it in a cogent manner while there is attention on it.  If you can't do that because you are too emotional, then you probably aren't going to get your point across and are just going to get banned again for mouth frothing posts. 


I put a question mark by assassinate because his context was not clear.  How exactly is an assassin (and not any other rogue) "taking out" a reaper by just getting one sneak attack?  Someone that plays an assassin would use a better description of what they meant. You will find others that inferred this meant assassinate on the main forums, I just posted that it was unclear. Feel free to ask what I meant by the question mark, instead of yet again making false statements (do you see a trend here?)

I already presented a clear solution of the type that is interactive and keeps the challenge of reapers:

1. Reapers have extended (longer range) detection capabilities (opposed detection or autospot while in stealth)
2. A reaper quickly tries to attack/approach the stealthy character, removing them from stealth when they are successfully attacked or when the rogue attacks or takes other actions that remove them from stealth
3. The mobs without sufficient spot/listen scores do not know the sneaking characters location until the player character is removed from stealth. The remaining (non-reaper) mobs could be at an "activated --> searching" or increased detection state (+listen/spot) once the reaper detects the player character.

These are logical statements based on goals of interactions and challenge.

You keep throwing out emotional states, but that is a reflection of your own inability to ask questions or listen to the other person. You likely think i am upset about being banned from the main forums, but I made my decisions based on logic and I am satisfied with the consequences. It happened months ago and I am no worse off --> my first thread was initially just a "hello" to those that may be in similar circumstances.

I doubt I'll be banned for posting one possible fix for stealth and reapers, or responding to your personal statements about me. The fix is as easy as you engaging in conversation instead of spending your time misrepresenting me. You could start by asking for clarification of my position --> the type of thing that happens in a conversation.  You will find my responses to be pleasant and on topic when you are not misrepresenting me or my opinions.



« Last Edit: Apr 26th, 2018 at 2:33pm by nokowi »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Rubbinns
The Undeserving Fuckwit
*
Offline


I Love Drama!

Posts: 10460
Joined: Sep 4th, 2013
Re: Change to stealth in reaper?
Reply #11 - Apr 26th, 2018 at 1:00pm
Print Post  
nokowi wrote on Apr 26th, 2018 at 11:49am:
You will find my responses to be pleasant and on topic

nigga, please. I remember how decidedly unpleasant and off-topic your "variable dc" posts on the mobs were in a thread that was about spell resistance issues. you truck stop stripper
  

Mockduck wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 2:20pm:
I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nokowi
Korthos Resident
*
Offline


I Love Drama!

Posts: 17
Joined: Apr 21st, 2018
Re: Change to stealth in reaper?
Reply #12 - Apr 26th, 2018 at 1:29pm
Print Post  
Rubbinns wrote on Apr 26th, 2018 at 1:00pm:
nigga, please. I remember how decidedly unpleasant and off-topic your "variable dc" posts on the mobs were in a thread that was about spell resistance issues. you truck stop stripper


Pleasant for Nokowi Smiley
« Last Edit: Apr 26th, 2018 at 1:30pm by nokowi »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Rubbinns
The Undeserving Fuckwit
*
Offline


I Love Drama!

Posts: 10460
Joined: Sep 4th, 2013
Re: Change to stealth in reaper?
Reply #13 - Apr 26th, 2018 at 3:43pm
Print Post  
nokowi wrote on Apr 26th, 2018 at 1:29pm:
Pleasant for Nokowi Smiley

truck stop stripping? i bet.
  

Mockduck wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 2:20pm:
I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send TopicPrint