Sam I am. I must put a disclaimer on those numbers. The numbers for ranged will be 30% higher in the dojo. (The numbers in that list are apples to apples, and 30% lower for ranged because they are debuffed more than melee.) The best fury thrower in that list was Shav. On LE he would have had 25k or a 20 second kill time of a kobold. He only used adrenaline as they recharged.

After rounds of various build dps testing we failed to break the 15 second mark with shintao monks. Despite utilizing a superior rotation from his last tests, symb only managed to attain a 20 second kill. 2 seconds slower from his previous attempt with unnerfed prowess. These were conducted on a fully geared and buffed character with all past lives.

My tests on no life character were also similar and were 2 seconds slower than my previous tests, 34 seconds currently compared to previous 32 for monk. my no life tempest clocked in at 33-32 seconds.

The fix to prowess was the largest roadblock to breaking 15 seconds on a monk. Though many of the builds tested could hit 15 seconds if using scourge's divine form.

Tempest seems to be ahead on the kobold tests by about 1 second versus all other builds that were comparable in dps testing. They are much easier to gear than monks and are less stat dependant. Rotations are very minimal and majority of the time is holding down attack. The caveat is that tempest dps hinges on 1k cuts for 15 seconds out of every 90. What that means is that on larger hp beatdowns monk/rogue/fighter are superior because they dont lose half their dps for 75 seconds until 1k cuts comes off cooldown. They can simply continue what they were doing without any drop of at all.

ssg actually did a really good job balancing out the melee dps classes. no builds were so far ahead as to obsolete any other builds tested. Most of the builds clocked in at around 17-20 seconds on average. Rogues, tempests, 18/2 fighters, monks, 20 fighter, are all in a very good place right now dps wise. 

Barbs need a slight adjustment. paladins and swashbucklers need a miracle.

Rose-tinted Goggles wrote on Jun 21^st, 2018 at 9:01pm:

better gear layout with access to slaver's and cc for weak spots. I only used named loot found in dojo. No mythic/reaper mp bonuses. No racial ap or lives, and no epic lives. Symb is also better at pulling off rotations than I am.

The ranger tempest tests were also similar, his 17 seconds, mine just now topped out at a bunch of 28s and a 25. 11~ second difference there too. Though hitting below 30 on a no life tempest with dojo gear is really, really good.

Rose-tinted Goggles wrote on Jun 21^st, 2018 at 9:01pm:


They all offer something unique. Fighters have hamp/prr/mrr/hps and sky high tactics dcs. Rangers get dod for aoe and cure spells for your teammates. Rogue gets traps, i guess ;p. Monks are still my favorite, but they have a high floor and ceiling since you have to spam ki attacks every second. But they do get the best tactic in the game in jade tomb, and 50% fort debuffs, self sustained vulnerability up to 30%, knock on the sky, and unbalancing strike.

I'm just retarded and can't break 25 seconds on a tempest.  I'm also drunk when testing which I'm sure doesn't help

How far behind are pallies?   Define "a miracle?"

Bigjunk wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2018 at 1:43pm:

Not exactly sure how far behind because I didn't bother rolling one, but they are missing everything that newer melees are sporting. Namely melee power and doublestrike. A complete lack of compared to other classes that are netting 50~ mp, or 20~ doublestrike in a tree.

Swash could use some MP to supplement its doublestrike values. There is not a niche that either class can fill currently that isn't already being done better by another class. Scourge, a racial tree, is a better undead killer than a paladin. SSG is clueless.



I tested a few variations on tempests and found some interesting things. If, say, you have stacked past lives then getting the crit multiplier in dws is more damage. However, if you're lacking all those dps past lives then vistani's 10 doublestrike and 10 offhand doublestrike is faster on average by around 2 seconds.

I tried a few main hand knife+ offhand khopesh set-ups to see what VKF can do. Things like vendetta and rapid slash will function as long as the main hand is a dagger. Even going as far as granting the offhand khopesh the crit values. Ultimately that layout is inferior to dual khopesh/scimitar and tier 5 tempest + capstone, but it is something for other builds in the future to use, maybe. Just not on a tempest.


What really surprised us was that swf beat twf on 18/2, pure 20, fighters and rogues. I believe it has to do with the damage modifier, high doublestrike values, and large ravenloft base die. Even if it is slightly behind attack rate compared to twf, swf leverages doublestrikes more effectively because it is not just full damage, but also gets the damage modifier.

Asheras wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2018 at 1:46pm:

I tried to use swashbuckler as a supplementary tree on a kensei + khopesh swf frame. By using skirmisher to allow for swf a khopesh while using a buckler for shield smashes. 16/3/1fvs, or 12/7/1 utilizing vanguard cores to get shield bash rates up to 80%+. The idea was to try and get the cane buckler's 3W (2d10+10) profile every second, along with shield mastery feats and twist for doublestrikes.

It was still behind every build we tested. Just is not worth taking those splits. The 12/7/1 could be interesting for newer characters without displace clickies, and it has access to cure spells, but lacks behind the other builds in dps. For reference I clocked those builds in at around 38 seconds for top end times. Slower than anything else i tested these past few days.

So the TWF would still be superior if you were proc fishing for vorpals and such?  Because it still has more hits/second?

But the SWF is stronger on DPS because it is more hits from the mainhand and those are going to be much stronger than the offhand hits.    Basically do you want to do 100 hits with 50 at 100 damage and 50 at 50 damage (750 damage) or do you want to do 80 hits all of them at 100 damage (800 damage).

Asheras wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2018 at 3:03pm:

Yes, but pswf would actually turn the advantage around for specifically on a roll of 20 effects. % chance procs like negative levels, or static on-hit like vacuum would favor twf. I'm legit surprised ssg managed to somehow bring a semblance of balance between all the melee styles. They haphazardly fumbled into the endzone here.

WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2018 at 9:16pm:


The +20 MP from vistani was fixed so it doesn't disappear when you equip something in your offhand. It's best to use an orb with SWF (assuming you're not centered or an arti splash), whether it's just for acquiring another piece for Adherent set, or for spellpower whenever you might need to occasionally throw heals.

SpaceGoat wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2018 at 10:33pm:

Lama went down Friday morning. It should come back up again in 2 weeks or so. Symb will test some more builds then. Stick builds, Vanguards, pally, and some tanks are on his agenda. 

Though Symb tested a ( iirc 8 6 6 centered sylvanus) wolf this go around and recorded low 20s. A bear variation wouldn't be too far apart. The difference is wolf has more attacks and sneak attack, and bear has glancing blows. It's a really good time to play a melee right now because like Junk said : everything is close. And that makes preferences more impactful on a quest to quest basis.   

It would be nice if the vistani stuff worked in wolf form. The new daggers are alright in term of base damage etc, Maybe my fat ass will download the next iteration of lamma!

Symbiont wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2018 at 10:23pm:


Fully fixed? Or does it still disappear if you have a shield equipped?