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Early Look - Bard Changes
Oct 16th, 2018 at 7:36am
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For those that can't access the main board... I know I read this and found myself mostly indifferent to it but some may find it interesting...

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/500273-Early-Look-Bard-Changes#post614...

Hello! We're here today to give you a first look at plans for significant changes to Bard coming up soon! This is pretty early in the process, so things are still subject to change; we'd love to know what you think!

BEFORE WE BEGIN:
Bard Songs of the modern era have been eroded in their usefulness as other buff and item effects have infringed upon their channels. They were meant to be a small, ever present bonus, and to instill the feeling that no matter what character you are playing, a Bard will help them excel at what they do best. In practice, however, they fall short - both on their effects and in how they actually feel to the player. It also takes a long time for a Bard to sing all of their songs, and most of them provide minimal - if any - bonuses for a very short period of time. Bards right now need a drastic change to bring them closer to pen and paper and to appropriate power levels, and we hope this accomplishes that goal in the most elegant way possible.

GOALS:

Recapture the feeling of a classical pen and paper Bard
Reduce the time it takes for a Bard to buff the party
Provide a meaningful reason as to why a party would want a Bard with them
Remove some of the not-quite-so-fun mechanics from the buff playstyle as a Bard
Help reduce strain on game performance by cleaning up the auras to play a lot nicer in a group
Clean up text inconsistencies and clear out bugs behind the scenes to make it easier to have future items/abilities affect Bard songs


THE PLAN:
Bards will no longer sing their songs individually, one at a time. Instead, their Single-Target Bard Songs will be collapsed into one "song" - known as their Bardic Inspiration - and their Area of Effect Bard Songs will simply be constantly pulsing from their location to all players. For example, the single target Bard Song “Inspire Heroics” is now automatically played (meaning its effects are added) when the Bard plays their Inspiration for their target - as long as the Bard meets the song’s Perform and level requirements.

For reference:

Aria: these are the passive Chants and Inspire Courage/Greatness
Bardic Inspiration: these are the single target Bard songs


Bardic Aria will become active at Bard level 1, and contain Inspire Courage at first. Bards will gain access to Bardic Inspiration at Bard level 3, which will initially contain Inspire Competence. The active Bard songs that would be granted are instead changed to passive feats that display their effects are and how they are applied.

THE SONGS:
This is how the basic Bard Songs are changing by their effect:

Inspire Courage now grants a Music bonuses to Attack, Damage, saves versus Fear, and Universal Spell Power. These start at a base of +1 Attack, Damage, Saves vs Fear, and 3 Universal Spell Power. (Max values: Damage +8 (4 from Bard levels, 3 from Warchanter, 1 from Fatesinger), Attack +8 (4 from Bard Levels, 3 from Warchanter, 1 from Fatesinger), Saves vs Fear +8 (4 from Bard Levels, 3 from Warchanter, 1 from Fatesinger), Universal Spell Power 30 (4 from Bard Levels, 3 from Warchanter, 3 from Fatesinger - x3 per increment))

Inspire Competence now grants +4 Music bonuses to all Skills.

Inspire Greatness now grants Music bonuses to PRR and healing amplification, as well as 20 temporary HP. These can be increased from their base of +3 PRR, +10 healing amp, and base 20 temp HP. Healing Amp will stay at 10 no matter what, but Music of the Dead will add 10 Negative Amp, and Music of the Makers will add 10 repair amp. Temp HP will start at 20, but the 12th level core (Fighting Spirit) in Warchanter will change it to your Charisma bonus (double in Epics). (Max Values: PRR +12 (3 base, 6 from Warchanter, 3 from Fatesinger))

Inspire Heroics will give a +4 Music bonus to all Saves, +4 Music bonus to Armor Class, and +4% Music bonus to dodge.

THE ARIA:
This is the constantly playing music that follows the Bard from place to place. The Aria of a Bard is constantly active and requires no additional input from the player. This Aria is a large Area of Effect that matches the distance of the current Warchanter passive auras. The Aria is only active if the character has at least something that would be applied.

At Bard level 1, and with 3 ranks in perform, all players in the Aria receive the benefits of Inspire Courage.

At Bard level 9 and with 12 ranks in perform, all players in the Aria receive the benefits of Inspire Greatness.

Arcane Shield Chant is now part of the Aria, providing 2/4/6 to elemental resistance.

Ironskin Chant is now part of the Aria, providing DR 2/4/6 and adds 2/4/6 to the PRR granted from Inspire Greatness.

Reckless Chant is now part of the Aria, providing 2/4/6 Doublestrike, Doubleshot, and adds 2/4/6 to the Universal Spell power of Inspire Courage.

Expeditious Chant is now part of the Aria, providing 5/10/15% Action Boost bonus to Movement Speed.

Chant of Power is now part of the Aria, providing 2/4/6% melee and ranged damage and spell critical chance for all spells.

Inspire Excellence is now part of the Aria, providing a +2 Music bonus to each ability score.

Also, Aria from Fatesinger is getting a name change into "Ballad" so we can use Aria as the name for this game feature.

BARDIC INSPIRATION:
This is, essentially, one button for every single target bard song in the game. After a brief animation and some music - just like the old Bard Songs - this single Song will apply all of the previously available single target songs - and the short lasting Spellsinger songs - to one ally (or yourself) at the same time. This activation will cost one Bard Song, just like the old Bard Songs did.

These are separate than the always-on songs because of their relative power level, with one exception that I will explain further below. Elyd Edge’s Inspiring Echoes will now cause this single-target Bard Song to always also apply to you as well, regardless of who you have selected, instead of its original effect.

These all last for the same amount of time - which is now 1m plus 30s per Bard level. If you have an ability that "rides along" with a Bard Song - such as Frolic from the Song of Freedom - it's duration will be changed to match your Bard Songs and it will ride along with Bardic Inspiration instead. Effects and abilities that increase your Bard Song duration will increase both the base Bard Song effects in your Bardic Inspiration, as well as anything else that comes along with the ride.

At Bard level 3, and with 6 ranks of Perform, this will include Inspire Competence.

At Bard level 15 and with 18 ranks in perform, this will include Inspire Heroics.

Spell Song Vigor is now part of this song, restoring spell points over time.

Sustaining Song is now part of this song, restoring health. Music of the Dead will add to this, applying a negative energy heal to Undead characters (aka Pale Master Wizards). Music of the Makers will add to this as well, applying a repair heal to Constructs and Living Constructs (aka Warforged/Bladeforged and the Iron Defender Artificer pet). These all scale with Positive/Negative/Repair spell power, respectively. This was AoE, but now it is single target due to the technical complication of dynamically filtering undead-specific heal over time effects, as we need to be able to tell if you're a Pale Master at the time of application to avoid putting the wrong heal on you.

Spell Song Trance is now part of this song, granting +1 Music bonus to all DCs and 10% Music bonus spell discount.

Song of Arcane Might is now part of this song, granting +1 Music bonus to caster levels.

The Song Fragments from Fatesinger now apply to you when you use your Bardic Inspiration. They are otherwise unchanged in effect. The same is true for anything that used to trigger on any Bard Song - it now works on Bardic Inspiration instead. This includes single-shot effects such as Prodigy and Words of Encouragement.

THE FEATS:
There is now a new general feat, available to Bards level 12 and above (must have 15 trained ranks in Perform):

Improved Bardic Music: Inspire Greatness now grants an additional +1 to all Skills, and Inspire Heroics now grants an additional +1 to Armor Class, Dodge, and all Saves.

Lasting Inspiration (the Bard epic feat) will remain unchanged.

FATESINGER:
Fatesinger will continue to ONLY provide the old activated Song version of Inspire Courage (although it will be the new version of Inspire Courage's effect that lives entirely on the Music channels) - no Aria or Bardic Inspiration. Fatesinger's ride along buffs will trigger on both your Bardic Inspiration AND the Fatesinger Inspire Courage, so you'll still be able to make use of it if you are not a Bard.


A lot of Fatesinger's Abilities will scale your Bard Songs in new ways:
O Fortuna: +1/2/3 PRR from Inspire Greatness, +1/2/3 personal fort and reflex saves
Allure: +3/6/9 Universal Spell Power from Inspire Courage, +2/4/6 Perform, Haggle, and Bluff, and 1 Song
Tailwind: +0/0/1 Damage from Inspire Courage, +1/2/3 competence to damage for missile weapons
Lucidity: +0/0/1 Attack from Inspire Courage, +2/4/6 Concentration/Diplomacy, +1/2/3 UMD, +1 Song.

WARCHANTER:
Warchanter's 12th level Core (Fighting Spirit) now reads: +10 HP, +1 Damage from Inspire Courage. Your Inspire Greatness now uses your Charisma score for its Temporary HP, double in epics.

Warchanter's 18th level Core (Victory Song) now reads: The range of your Bardic Aria is doubled. You have +20 HP, and Base Attack Bonus equal to your character level.

The Warchanter Capstone now reads: You have +25 HP, +2 Strength, and +2 Con. You can expend a Bard Song to scream the songs of your frozen ancestors, forcing enemies in an area to make a fortitude save versus Freeze or be slowed significantly. Either way, they take significant cold damage over time. This was changed due to the Warchanter capstone no longer making mechanical sense in the new Bard Song flow - there's no need to give Music bonuses when everything's already a Music bonus!

CONCLUSION:
We hope very much that these changes preserve the spirit of a Bard without any of the old, less interactive parts. Drastically reduced buff time and increased buff effectiveness will go a long way to making Bards more team players, and new character options open up build diversity for players to explore. Please let us know what you think!
  
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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #1 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 9:14am
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It would be nice if they use a Pete Townsend 'windmill' style animation and discordant riff for the song.
  
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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #2 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 11:07am
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To the one or two actual bard mains who play Spellsinger instead of Swashbuckler; my bad.

When I originally suggested that the Sustaining Song should be able to heal undead, I wasn't expecting this particular outcome. I formally apologize for fucking up a good thing. Sad
  
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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #3 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 12:13pm
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Edrein wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 11:07am:
To the one or two actual bard mains who play Spellsinger instead of Swashbuckler; my bad.

When I originally suggested that the Sustaining Song should be able to heal undead, I wasn't expecting this particular outcome. I formally apologize for fucking up a good thing. Sad

You should have known.

SSG devs rock the grandmaster Corrupt-a-Wish feat.

Power Surge
Henshin stick builds
Wraps monks
Warlocks
Ranged builds
Reaper
and on and on
« Last Edit: Oct 16th, 2018 at 12:13pm by Digimonk »  
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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #4 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 12:50pm
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Digimonk wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 12:13pm:
You should have known.

SSG devs rock the grandmaster Corrupt-a-Wish feat.

Power Surge
Henshin stick builds
Wraps monks
Warlocks
Ranged builds
Reaper
and on and on


In my defense, I originally suggested this almost two years ago. The fact they read any of my feedback or suggestions is amazing given comments by Lynabel on reddit.
  
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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #5 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 1:48pm
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Edrein wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 12:50pm:
In my defense, I originally suggested this almost two years ago. The fact they read any of my feedback or suggestions is amazing given comments by Lynabel on reddit.


If you were to ask they'd probably deny it, and there's a reasonable change this change was a coincidence.
  

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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #6 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 2:01pm
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noamineo wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 1:48pm:
If you were to ask they'd probably deny it, and there's a reasonable change this change was a coincidence.


They'd either deny or say it was influencing. Since they went past just healing undead and added toasters to the mix as well.

I still stand by it being a good idea. But I'm really not sure why it can't be an AoE song. I can run with the repair aura on and I get immune pop ups for nearby fleshies. Clerics can run aura and get immune for undead. Undead can run auras and get immune on allies. So how they've managed to bungle the code on this one is a bit beyond my ability to rationalize.
« Last Edit: Oct 16th, 2018 at 2:05pm by Edrein »  
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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #7 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 3:33pm
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Yeah all the niche healing requirements are a pain in the ass.
  

I'll never understand the propensity of people to brag about being good at a video game. Its a toy you play with for fun. The only person who should be proud of you is your mother. If you're 3.
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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #8 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 4:36pm
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Synchrono wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 7:36am:
This is pretty early in the process, so things are still subject to change; we'd love to know what you think!


Bullshit.  If you're this far in, you've already decided.
  
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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #9 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 4:52pm
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noamineo wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 3:33pm:
Yeah all the niche healing requirements are a pain in the ass.


It's just another in the long line of "fuck grouping".  They have a massive, terrifyingly powerful hardon for not wanting people to group in DDO.  I'm not sure what it is really.

I'm 99% certain that they're only allowed to keep DDO up and running provided they don't go above a certain level of popularity.  Like if they actually break 10k active players again WoTC will step in and shut them down.  So long as they aren't a threat to NWN they're allowed to exist.

It's the only way really to explain just how much they don't want to grow the game.  Every other game out there that's expanding and getting new players bends over backwards to make grouping and finding other players a painless and sometimes even pleasant experience.

DDO/SSG has yet to go more than like...3 updates in a row without doing something to make grouping even less appealing.
  
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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #10 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 4:53pm
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Does anyone really give two shits about Bards?

I'd think a higher priority would be to get cracking on the caster pass. WAY more people play those than Bards.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
  

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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #11 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 5:17pm
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Technomage wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 4:53pm:
Does anyone really give two shits about Bards?

I'd think a higher priority would be to get cracking on the caster pass. WAY more people play those than Bards.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

'
I think the bigger problem is this 'pass' doesn't fix the reasons bards aren't played. 2/3 enhancement trees are awfully outdated, combined with mechanics that aren't useful.

If this included buffing to bard songs, and a few solid tweaks to SS and WC then we might see people play bards beyond the swashbuckler bastard splashes. Because let's be honest pure swashbuckler aint a thing.
  
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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #12 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 6:49pm
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Technomage wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 4:53pm:
I'd think a higher priority would be to get cracking on the caster pass.


That's supposed to be part of Sharn.  I'm assuming it's because they want to sell Iconic Tieflings, and tying them to Sorc or Bard in their current states is a recipe for disaster.
  

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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #13 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 8:05pm
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Synchrono wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 7:36am:
Recapture the feeling of a classical pen and paper Bard

Dual-classing is coming to DDO?


Synchrono wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 7:36am:
After a brief animation and some music - just like the old Bard Songs - this single Song will apply all of the previously available single target songs

Meh. Today's music ain't got the same soul.
  

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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #14 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 9:59pm
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raybob wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 4:36pm:
Bullshit.  If you're this far in, you've already decided.


Hey now that's StirShitdip talking there not me.... I just quoted the fucktard...

And I agree most of this list is set in granite unless its something the intern can lightly modify like a spelling error... which is mostly what Lynnabel seems good for.
  
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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #15 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 10:10pm
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Technomage wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 4:53pm:
Does anyone really give two shits about Bards?

I'd think a higher priority would be to get cracking on the caster pass. WAY more people play those than Bards.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


I mostly had the same reaction really. I have a Icechanter Swash build I like to break out from time to time but mostly of late I am grinding various alt completionists lives, the odd ETR to break a monotony of that and looking for alternative games.

The caster pass is going to be a real challenge for them because I am sure they won't focus in on what is really needed to do to scale the caster damage. Lifting those caps of Level 10 and 15 on most of the damage spells would do a whole lot. Make things like Horrid Wilting actually effect magical plants.... perhaps give us different spells and definitely clean up those trees.

I am not decided as to what I would like to see done with Palemaster.

My fear is most of the caster pass will be spent on EK because you know they know we all long to melee with a d4 base HD toon....

I fear that SSGs inability to really understand the core of their own math that they keep demonstrating over and over will make the caster pass just unworkable. Partial proof of that is that the squirrels were distracted by.... Bard Songs.... which maybe 20 players gave two shits about in the first place....
  
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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #16 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 10:32pm
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Zehnpai wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 4:52pm:
I'm 99% certain that they're only allowed to keep DDO up and running provided they don't go above a certain level of popularity.  Like if they actually break 10k active players again WoTC will step in and shut them down.  So long as they aren't a threat to NWN they're allowed to exist.


  

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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #17 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 11:35pm
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Synchrono wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 10:10pm:
I am not decided as to what I would like to see done with Palemaster.

My fear is most of the caster pass will be spent on EK because you know they know we all long to melee with a d4 base HD toon...


Agreed on most things.

As far as PM goes; I'd like more/updated SLAs, some sort of self sufficiency SLA Neg Burst like clerics please, and ultimately I'd like to see Vampire Form's lifesteal swapped to the basic form and the negative levels on crits swapped to the master vamp. And make the lifesteal a 1d6 that scales with USP at like 25-50%. Let the further cores bump vampire to 2d6 at 12, and 3d6 at 18/20. But this is mostly to mesh with EK/multiclassing.

EK... EK is probably going to end up like melee warlocks should have been I'm guessing based on the dev responses as of late to various threads. I'll take a wild guess and say the elemental imbues will be removed. Instead you imbue a spell to your melee attack ala Hideous Blow from tabletop warlock in 3.5e. The tree will get a few bells and whistles as well, but overall we'll see them slapping lower level spells into their auto attacks.

  
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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #18 - Oct 17th, 2018 at 6:15am
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Synchrono wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 9:59pm:
which is mostly what Lynnabel seems good for.

Fuck that cunt.
  
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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #19 - Oct 17th, 2018 at 11:10am
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TornadoJoe wrote on Oct 17th, 2018 at 6:15am:
Fuck that cunt.


Seriously? What did she ever do to you that you had to say something like that?
  

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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #20 - Oct 17th, 2018 at 11:44am
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Synchrono wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 7:36am:
We hope very much that these changes preserve the spirit of a Bard without any of the old, less interactive parts. Drastically reduced buff time and increased buff effectiveness will go a long way to making Bards more team players, and new character options open up build diversity for players to explore. Please let us know what you think!


Some QoL fixes, and some questionable changes.  IDK what that has to do with build diversity.
  

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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #21 - Oct 17th, 2018 at 1:19pm
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Technomage wrote on Oct 17th, 2018 at 11:10am:
Seriously? What did she ever do to you that you had to say something like that?


Don't you know? You have to say "edgy" ssg attacks so that the vault thinks you're cool.
  
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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #22 - Oct 17th, 2018 at 1:34pm
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Ulysses wrote on Oct 17th, 2018 at 1:19pm:
Don't you know? You have to say "edgy" ssg attacks so that the vault thinks you're cool.

Ahhhh...of course. My bad.  Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed
  

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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #23 - Oct 17th, 2018 at 1:37pm
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So would anyone like to do me a favor and point out this new healing burst song replacing Boast shouldn't be positive energy only?

If you are going to take the time and seperate the Sustaining Song into three versions, might as well give us the burst with all three as well.

(Totes isn't me trying to get an extra heal for only 2 bard instead of 4.)
  
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Re: Early Look - Bard Changes
Reply #24 - Oct 18th, 2018 at 2:59pm
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Looks like a nice start. Somewhat wordy and cluttered though so it was kind of difficult to understand parts. I hope they also update Spellsinger and/or Warchanter because those trees seem somewhat lacking compared to Swashbuckler... does anyone even go T5 in those anymore, other than casuals?

The other main tree that I hope gets an update is Eldritch Knight. I don't think that tree has been updated since 2013, when it was first released... and a LOT has happened in 5 years. It's just a very subpar tree that's too bottom-heavy, with tier 5 being completely impractical and higher tiers in the tree providing diminishing returns. Eldritch Shield is also bugged and doesn't stack like the tooltip would suggest. I just think it'd be nice to have an magic knight sort of build that isn't shit, but I don't know if that's really something that they or others want to prioritize.

Speaking of things they should prioritize though, there's always the ladder bug...
  
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