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Hot Topic (More than 35 Replies) Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes" (Read 9689 times)
Rubbinns
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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #25 - Oct 25th, 2018 at 1:14pm
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WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 11:31am:
I take dodge in my reaper trees, enhancements, and twist to fill it out.

That shouldn't be more than 15-20 dodge tops.

WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 11:31am:
The RSO loot ain't gonna change though

I didn't think this one through. Even if they had adjusted it to ravenloft raid values, the goggles do not suddenly become much more desirable. 18 dodge vs 20 is pretty much a wash. Still, the item is great, but I feel we don't have enough loot for the diversity to compliment the slot versatility of the goggles. It's also a speed item. So much latent potential there. We just need another few packs with more sets of robust loot.

Another roadblock for loot design that we are heading to is the uniqueness of items. We are already kind of saturated with stat creep and set bonuses. It's going to become even more stale in the very near future. They should focus on shifting to creative effects rather than stacking huge values in large quantities on a single item. Even slot diversification of items will become stale and uninspired. There should not be 12 places to slot dodge....

SSG cannot continue to design items that are only better because it has 21 stat instead of 20, or 7 effects instead of 5. They need to be wiling to break the game and bend the rules to radicalize playstyles or new building options. Something like a ring of evasion with no other effects would outweigh most of the loot today if considering something like that for a build. Unless their vision is for the next expansion having 22 stats and 7 effects per item, and then the one after has 24 and 9.
  

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I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #26 - Oct 25th, 2018 at 1:15pm
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Legendary Souls.  Your move.


So, which item is that?  Kiss
  

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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #27 - Oct 25th, 2018 at 1:19pm
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We are already kind of saturated with stat creep and set bonuses.


Lhynn says she wants MOD gear to be on the level of slavers---but without a set bonus, the gear has not a chance in hell.

If they allowed us to apply any set bonus to any item through runes/legendary souls, then I'd say this system might create some cool combinations.
  

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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #28 - Oct 25th, 2018 at 1:23pm
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WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 1:19pm:
Lhynn says she wants MOD gear to be on the level of slavers---but without a set bonus, the gear has not a chance in hell.

yeah, that's fine. But the strength of slavers is the versatility and customization for any build. Set bonus for casters was probably a mistake unless they make a set with 7 dc bonus. Even if pushing MoD or ENecro 4 items to Ravenloft values, are there any items worth it?
  

Mockduck wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 2:20pm:
I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #29 - Oct 25th, 2018 at 1:24pm
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Remember how the White Plume pack was supposed to make epic leveling more fun?

This new raid gear will make leveling more fun!

Dat some bullhockey.

White plume content is skipped in epics because it is long, and unrewarding. The  thing selling the pack is the requirement for sentient progression. If they want to revitalize the leveling progression then they need to take a DEEP look at difficulty versus reward.

People have been facerolling content for years, and reaper didn't fix it. They didn't nerf EPIC PLs in heroics and the reaper trees are abominations. Ya, you need carrots, but people always take the path of least resistance. That's why the white plume epic quests are dead. That's why the raids will stay dead. That's why the powercreep in Sarn will feel like a breath of fresh air.

« Last Edit: Oct 25th, 2018 at 1:26pm by WonderfulFoppyBint »  

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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #30 - Oct 25th, 2018 at 1:27pm
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WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 1:19pm:
If they allowed us to apply any set bonus to any item through runes/legendary souls, then I'd say this system might create some cool combinations.

This would make raiding extremely lively again. Put a restriction on only named items for set bonus access. It would assist with balancing against multi set bonuses on new items, while also keeping raids busy because multi set bonuses on new items.
  

Mockduck wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 2:20pm:
I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #31 - Oct 25th, 2018 at 1:51pm
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WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 1:19pm:
Lhynn says she wants MOD gear to be on the level of slavers---but without a set bonus, the gear has not a chance in hell.

If they allowed us to apply any set bonus to any item through runes/legendary souls, then I'd say this system might create some cool combinations.



Fuck, this would get me to reinstall the game and sub again, probably. The other changes as proposed now...uh...probably not.
  
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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #32 - Oct 25th, 2018 at 3:09pm
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WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 1:15pm:
So, which item is that?  Kiss

The item people will actually farm the old raids for.



WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 1:19pm:
If they allowed us to apply any set bonus to any item through runes/legendary souls, then I'd say this system might create some cool combinations.

Yeah... no.  You already know why that's not true.  You even stated it in a follow up post.

WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 1:24pm:
but people always take the path of least resistance.


If you want to see how that ends, look at filigree and consider how many good DPS melee don't run with a 5-piece prowess set.
« Last Edit: Oct 25th, 2018 at 3:19pm by Digimonk »  
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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #33 - Oct 25th, 2018 at 3:11pm
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WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 10:02am:
3. Dethek Runestone: the insightful devotion may shoot up. The +2[w] was already ok. I'm not sure how it stacks up against properly build two-handed though.


It's actually borked, hence my post. You only get +1W from it. At first I used to believe it was just an error on the inventory page, then I took the time to investigate further and test it. It actually only gives +1W.

The shield is really limited if you're using it for DPS purposes. The only places it shines are a couple of cases; obviously abnormal/high base die weapons is one. Abusing other weapon die bonuses is another: Such as wielding a Flotsam while taking the level 6 SH core to slap another +1W on it and the +1W from vistani, that bumps it up to a 8[1d4] which for a single dagger is pretty damn respectable. It'd also be useful in the instance that you are a half-orc for pumping out big boy damage while using your rage clickie.

For me; what they need to change scaling wise is the 15/adamantine DR portion. Make it 30/- to compete with Bloodrage Chism and Shadowdragon Plate. Also make the +2W actually give +2W, though I'll be greedy and ask for +3W. After all given the changes to druids; this is practically your only reason to not go with a two-hander if you're serious about DPS.
  
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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #34 - Oct 25th, 2018 at 3:38pm
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If you want to see how that ends, look at filigree and consider how many good DPS melee don't run with a 5-piece prowess set.


What are you even saying? No good melee run without it. That wasn't my point though. People TAKE the path of least resistance. People WILL chase endless meaningless grinds if its the only way to get the carrot. The new loot though doesn't incentivize the old content as you obviously showed with:

Quote:
The item people will actually farm the old raids for.


You can't think of a single item that would be scaled to slavers stat levels that you'd want. That was my fucking point dipstick.
« Last Edit: Oct 25th, 2018 at 3:39pm by WonderfulFoppyBint »  

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volt_ wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 4:43pm:
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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #35 - Oct 25th, 2018 at 3:42pm
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Edrein wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 3:11pm:
It's actually borked, hence my post. You only get +1W from it. At first I used to believe it was just an error on the inventory page, then I took the time to investigate further and test it. It actually only gives +1W.

The shield is really limited if you're using it for DPS purposes. The only places it shines are a couple of cases; obviously abnormal/high base die weapons is one. Abusing other weapon die bonuses is another: Such as wielding a Flotsam while taking the level 6 SH core to slap another +1W on it and the +1W from vistani, that bumps it up to a 8[1d4] which for a single dagger is pretty damn respectable. It'd also be useful in the instance that you are a half-orc for pumping out big boy damage while using your rage clickie.

For me; what they need to change scaling wise is the 15/adamantine DR portion. Make it 30/- to compete with Bloodrage Chism and Shadowdragon Plate. Also make the +2W actually give +2W, though I'll be greedy and ask for +3W. After all given the changes to druids; this is practically your only reason to not go with a two-hander if you're serious about DPS.


Cheers. I didn't know that was borked. I'll go bother Lhynn (bless her soul) about it a little.

The DR/30 is dogshit though since it applies before PRR. Say the tank gets hit for 3k physical damage. The DR 30 is just a 1% reduction in that damage. Hopefully they hit DR with the same bat they did with barbarians.
« Last Edit: Oct 25th, 2018 at 3:44pm by WonderfulFoppyBint »  

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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #36 - Oct 25th, 2018 at 4:47pm
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WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 3:38pm:
What are you even saying? No good melee run without it. That wasn't my point though. People TAKE the path of least resistance. People WILL chase endless meaningless grinds if its the only way to get the carrot. The new loot though doesn't incentivize the old content as you obviously showed with:


You can't think of a single item that would be scaled to slavers stat levels that you'd want. That was my fucking point dipstick.

Fuck Prowess set, fuck sentients, if you need these boosts to play you're garbage. I stay in level 20 gear through 30, run no less than r5 and if you can't keep up, gtfo.
  
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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #37 - Oct 25th, 2018 at 4:47pm
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400, cunts
  
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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #38 - Oct 25th, 2018 at 4:53pm
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WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 3:42pm:
Cheers. I didn't know that was borked. I'll go bother Lhynn (bless her soul) about it a little.

The DR/30 is dogshit though since it applies before PRR. Say the tank gets hit for 3k physical damage. The DR 30 is just a 1% reduction in that damage. Hopefully they hit DR with the same bat they did with barbarians.


I've bug reported, forum reported, and done just about every type of reported you can do about the +2W on Dethek. I'm fairly certain the devs either can't fix it, or they don't want to fix it.

I'll agree that making a flat percentage based reduction would be the best. But let's be honest; better to shoot for the 30/- than say 5-10% flat reduction and enrage the devs for sounding greedy or entitled for wanting such.
  
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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #39 - Oct 25th, 2018 at 5:27pm
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acidpickachu wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 11:16am:
I’d say I’m semi-erect. ...



Fixed that for you... you're welcome
  
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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #40 - Oct 25th, 2018 at 5:34pm
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Well, there are a lot of good points here, it's amazing to see all the points of view and how invested posters can be. I tend to give the developers the benefit of the doubt because their success depends on a healthy game.
  
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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #41 - Oct 25th, 2018 at 8:39pm
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WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 3:38pm:
What are you even saying? No good melee run without it. That wasn't my point though.

People TAKE the path of least resistance. People WILL chase endless meaningless grinds if its the only way to get the carrot. The new loot though doesn't incentivize the old content as you obviously showed with:

You can't think of a single item that would be scaled to slavers stat levels that you'd want. That was my fucking point dipstick.

Your idea for customizable set bonuses would be a colossal waste of coding hours.  In the end, there are only a handful of set bonuses worth using and those aren't that hard to get as is.  Just like there are only a handful of filigree sets that are used even though there are 30+ filigree sets that you can "customize" however you wish.  The devs wasted a large amount of time itemizing those other filigree sets.


Not sure what you don't understand about legendary souls being the item that incentivizes old raids. Run old raids.  Get legendary souls.  Get items you want using legendary souls.  Incentive!

If you don't understand how getting more souls by running the old raids in addition to the new ones is incentive, I'm not sure what else to say as it can't be more obvious.

However, since you think the impact will be "ZERO", this won't incentivize people to run the old raids and there's nothing worth farming, it will be interesting to see how many old raids you run after the change.
« Last Edit: Oct 25th, 2018 at 8:43pm by Digimonk »  
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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #42 - Oct 25th, 2018 at 11:48pm
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Digimonk wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 8:39pm:
Your idea for customizable set bonuses would be a colossal waste of coding hours.  In the end, there are only a handful of set bonuses worth using and those aren't that hard to get as is.  Just like there are only a handful of filigree sets that are used even though there are 30+ filigree sets that you can "customize" however you wish.  The devs wasted a large amount of time itemizing those other filigree sets.


Not sure what you don't understand about legendary souls being the item that incentivizes old raids. Run old raids.  Get legendary souls.  Get items you want using legendary souls.  Incentive!

If you don't understand how getting more souls by running the old raids in addition to the new ones is incentive, I'm not sure what else to say as it can't be more obvious.

However, since you think the impact will be "ZERO", this won't incentivize people to run the old raids and there's nothing worth farming, it will be interesting to see how many old raids you run after the change.


It really depends on how the system is expanded set wise. If it could be -any- set? It'd be worthwhile even for some of the older S/S/S sets could be useful if slotted on newer gear. Imagine having Greater Might of the Abishai on actual useful gear. Or ToD sets. Hell even the Red Fens sets could be useful here (I'm talking if they got the same quality of boosts the heroic versions got.)

For instance; it'd make the new rage armor from Killing Time useful if I can give it a set. As making it a Silent Avenger or hell even Adherent of the Mists is a lot more useful than it's current situation of not being a set piece. Which makes it a dead slot item even if niche/nice for Barbs and Druids.

Or being able to take something like Dethek Runestone and making it a set piece. Same for any other raid gear that is situationally good, but is otherwise outclassed due to set bonuses from gear like Ravenloft.

Hell, I'd love if this would also allow already set-bonused gear to be swapped bonus wise. While there's no contestion that Silent Avenger is the best melee DPS set. The three pieces consisting it are arguably shit for non Monks, Rangers, or Rogues. Although let's be honest, maybe Silent Avenger should just get slapped with the nerf bat. Or maybe I shouldn't have opened my mouth and got Adherents of the Mist nerfed by saying the Vampirism would be awful it was it the non-stacking 1CD version on the Nightmother weapons.
« Last Edit: Oct 25th, 2018 at 11:56pm by Edrein »  
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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #43 - Oct 26th, 2018 at 4:27am
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ISeeSockPuppets wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 11:11am:
redoing the loot to match the current power curve


And did you miss the part where these dumb fucks think that Fortification at level 16 should be 94% vs the ML8 100% Fort aug. I am fairly certain I will be farming none of these if the power curves they are matching are more of this bullshit.
  
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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #44 - Oct 26th, 2018 at 6:07am
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Digimonk wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 8:39pm:
Not sure what you don't understand about legendary souls being the item that incentivizes old raids. Run old raids.  Get legendary souls.  Get items you want using legendary souls.  Incentive!

If you don't understand how getting more souls by running the old raids in addition to the new ones is incentive, I'm not sure what else to say as it can't be more obvious.
.


Except they havent announced anything worth buying with legendary souls yet - right now they are only used for upgrading old loot to new loot with a promise that they will be used for something awesome in the future - you can not use them to buy say Strahd items as that will remain tied to the rune system.
  
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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #45 - Oct 26th, 2018 at 11:19am
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Justanotherlurker wrote on Oct 26th, 2018 at 6:07am:
Except they havent announced anything worth buying with legendary souls yet - right now they are only used for upgrading old loot to new loot with a promise that they will be used for something awesome in the future - you can not use them to buy say Strahd items as that will remain tied to the rune system.

Yet being the key word.  Lynn did however mention their plans for the future.


From Lynnabel in the OP:
Quote:
LEGENDARY SOULS

Similar to Commendations of Heroism and Greater Tokens of the Twelve, we’re introducing a new Endgame Raid Currency in the form of Legendary Souls. Right now, their main use is to turn old at-cap raid gear into new and improved versions. In the future, they will be used for a variety of things, such as upgrading future raid gear or acquiring raid-level items.

You can find Legendary Souls in the end chests of at-cap raids, regardless of Tier. You can also transmute them out of Raid Runes, the ratio of which will be determined by the relative difficulty and the tier of the raid.

We see Legendary Souls as a good and clean jumping off point for future Legendary content, and we hope to incentivize players to run a variety of raids at cap rather than just the few they specifically want gear from. If a player does not need gear from a specific raid, being able to get something regardless is a good step to encourage raiders at cap to run a variety of content.

We recognize that right now the rewards for enfranchised at-cap players might not completely satisfy their wishes for something to work towards, but once the framework is in place we can add more uses for Souls to encourage endgame raiders to try and collect this currency, which in turn incentivizes raid diversity at cap. Legendary Souls will be Bound to Account on Acquire.


Granted, I realize this could very well turn out to be a "check is in the mail" vaporware thing, especially since it's SSG saying it.  If they do follow through on that though, it will be a really good change.

« Last Edit: Oct 26th, 2018 at 11:20am by Digimonk »  
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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #46 - Oct 26th, 2018 at 1:46pm
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Synchrono wrote on Oct 26th, 2018 at 4:27am:
And did you miss the part where these dumb fucks think that Fortification at level 16 should be 94% vs the ML8 100% Fort aug. I am fairly certain I will be farming none of these if the power curves they are matching are more of this bullshit.


Nerf augments. Got it.
  

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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #47 - Oct 28th, 2018 at 1:55pm
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5 Foot Step wrote on Oct 26th, 2018 at 1:46pm:
Nerf augments. Got it.


Haha, I don't care, I have this big boy!


(On a favor runner on Wayfinder, uh.)
« Last Edit: Oct 28th, 2018 at 1:55pm by crunch »  
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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #48 - Oct 29th, 2018 at 5:06pm
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Quote:
TL;DR:

"Remember Greater tokens of the Twelve? We're doing that again. No, you can't trade Greater tokens of the Twelve for new GtotT. That would be silly."


Quote:
Introduce a new legendary raid currency that we can support going forward

Golly. Yet another currency. Who could ever have seen that coming? False promise to "support going forward" included, free with your purchase. Price: Only all the time you've wasted so far. A virtual bargain basement for basement dwellers.

Hey, yes, these are good changes. All I'm saying is they could have maybe done a better job of concealing the part where they tell veterans to go fuck themselves and their previous time invested.

... And introduce a VIP that actually delivers all content, for fuck's sake.


Quote:
Provide design space to move forward in future content without overlapping what we’ve already introduced

This is why they always renege on "universal currency".


Quote:
Similar to Commendations of Heroism and Greater Tokens of the Twelve, we’re introducing a new Endgame Raid Currency in the form of Legendary Souls.

Similar to, but of course, not tradeable with. Backwards tradeability would make Legendary Souls not similar. To the same. Thing. They always. Do.


Quote:
without overlapping what we’ve already introduced

Because.
  

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Re: Dev Talk "The Endgame, Raid Loot, and Tomes"
Reply #49 - Oct 29th, 2018 at 9:02pm
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Revaulting wrote on Oct 29th, 2018 at 5:06pm:
Hey, yes, these are good changes. All I'm saying is they could have maybe done a better job of concealing the part where they tell veterans to go fuck themselves and their previous time invested.

This is why they always renege on "universal currency".


Similar to, but of course, not tradeable with. Backwards tradeability would make Legendary Souls not similar. To the same. Thing. They always. Do.


Because.


You know why they don't have a  universal currency that goes backwards.  Let's not pretend otherwise.
  
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