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Very Hot Topic (More than 75 Replies) Hardcore eyeroll (Read 15855 times)
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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #50 - Dec 18th, 2019 at 12:39pm
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I think it would be interesting to see it come up every 2-3 months for a shorter period of time, say 1 week, with shorter term challenges.   Maybe a once monthly "weekend warrior challenge".  Where it is up from Thursday 4pm ET to Monday at 10am ET.     That would:   A)  Create some urgency to play that weekend. (or week)  and B)  Not heavily affect the production server population like a 90 day hardcore league did. 

Rather than have the store active, maybe the challenge server has a 495 DDO Points entry fee per character created.   VIP can use their monthly points for it and essentially get in for free.  Premium can pay the points.   So it isn't restricting to just VIP.   Tweak the pricing model/price points if you want.   I'm just saying that something like that would monetize it in a way that doesn't create imbalance in the competition.
  
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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #51 - Dec 18th, 2019 at 2:01pm
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I personally would like to see all kobold race hardcore.  Base 6 stats.  24 build points. Quickest to 20 as logged in quests wins.  Two weeks to do it.  Really awful racial tree and no global trees.
  

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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #52 - Dec 18th, 2019 at 3:52pm
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Toke wrote on Dec 18th, 2019 at 2:01pm:
I personally would like to see all kobold race hardcore.  Base 6 stats.  24 build points. Quickest to 20 as logged in quests wins.  Two weeks to do it.  Really awful racial tree and no global trees.

You lost me at "Kobold Race".   I've go no interest in playing as one of those.  On hardcore or otherwise.   

However, the idea of targeted competitions "Elf (and variants) only" or "Bard" only or "Caster Only" very time limited hardcore events would be interesting.  A throwback to all cleric shrouds or the halfling summer games.


  
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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #53 - Dec 19th, 2019 at 8:56pm
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higgildypiggildy wrote on Dec 17th, 2019 at 1:56pm:
Everyone was on an equal footing.  On the hardcore server we are all VIP's we all regularly spend mney on DDO.  We all Pay. 
You could choose to pay, or not. 

Some people have jobs/families and cannot play as much as others.  Is that everyone being on an equal footing, explain to me (and use small words to be sure I understand) that one person having more time available to play than another is equal where as being willing to spend more money is not equal.


Because, you can spend an incredible amount of money more than anyone else, but there is always the finite limit of the number of hours in a day.  If there was a max amount (like pay to subscribe as a VIP and NO STORE), that would be a finite ceiling and everyone would be on equal footing.

I am sorry I used multi-syllable words.

  
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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #54 - Dec 20th, 2019 at 6:50pm
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Dark_Helmet wrote on Dec 19th, 2019 at 8:56pm:
Because, you can spend an incredible amount of money more than anyone else, but there is always the finite limit of the number of hours in a day.  If there was a max amount (like pay to subscribe as a VIP and NO STORE), that would be a finite ceiling and everyone would be on equal footing.


While in theory there is no maximum amount you can spend, there is a practical limit on what you can have that is useful and effective.  once you have
a supreme tome, 100 XP/Slayer/Treasure Hunter Elixir's, bunch of skill tomes and 100 spell point/healing potions and a few augments, there's nothing that money gets you that helps in quests.  $500 isn't all that much to spend for some people. 

Having 100 Sov. healing potions is the same as having 1000, you can't drink them any faster.  You have to survive the fight to be able to benefit from the extra resources to put you back to full on the next one.  Anyone can be one shot by a champion/reaper or hit by the lag monster for 5-10 seconds and die. 

Earlier in the thead Asheras nailed the essential meaning of my (earlier) comment/question
Even without the store the hardcore league isn’t really “fair”.   It’s always about who wants to spend more resources.  That’s how mmos work in general.

Time is a resource, just like money is. A lot of people seem to hate the fact that others have more money available and see that as unfair, where they have lots of time to spend and little or no money.
  

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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #55 - Dec 20th, 2019 at 7:21pm
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higgildypiggildy wrote on Dec 20th, 2019 at 6:50pm:
Time is a resource, just like money is. A lot of people seem to hate the fact that others have more money available and see that as unfair, where they have lots of time to spend and little or no money.



I don't think anyone cares how much money is spent. If you spend 10 cents to gain even the most minute of advantages, it's literally an attempt to pay to win. Whether you win or not is another story.

Time is a different issue all together.

Life isn't fair and I don't give a fuck who is butthurt about what, I just think it's funny that people are trying to change what p2w means so they fit in whatever category they wish to be in.

  

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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #56 - Dec 21st, 2019 at 7:34am
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Slick Stick wrote on Dec 20th, 2019 at 7:21pm:
Life isn't fair and I don't give a fuck who is butthurt about what, I just think it's funny that people are trying to change what p2w means so they fit in whatever category they wish to be in.

^This!

I didn't play on the hardcore server, so nobody bought an advantage over me, and I'm not whining about my loss. But seriously, Bill Clinton did a better job of convincing people a blow job wasn't sex than any argument I've seen here does of convincing me that the full store on hardcore wasn't P2W.

I freely admit that I've got more money than time or skill, and I've bought advantage shamelessly (no, I didn't earn my Kraken & amenities by selling mats on the shard exchange), I'm not going to belittle anybody for paying for advantage. But I'll sure as hell laugh at anybody who tries to argue it's not P2W  Grin
  

Turdbin, keep changing the DDO rules, because McDonalds sold over 200 billion hamburgers by changing the recipe for their Special Sauce every couple of months to keep interest up.
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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #57 - Dec 21st, 2019 at 7:39am
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higgildypiggildy wrote on Dec 20th, 2019 at 6:50pm:
Time is a resource, just like money is. A lot of people seem to hate the fact that others have more money available and see that as unfair, where they have lots of time to spend and little or no money. 


Yes, but spending time is Play to Win, spending money is Pay to Win. The whole point is people were expecting Play to Win when it was announced, and they gave us Pay to Win.
  

Turdbin, keep changing the DDO rules, because McDonalds sold over 200 billion hamburgers by changing the recipe for their Special Sauce every couple of months to keep interest up.
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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #58 - Dec 21st, 2019 at 8:41am
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Meursault wrote on Dec 21st, 2019 at 7:39am:
Yes, but spending time is Play to Win, spending money is Pay to Win. The whole point is people were expecting Play to Win when it was announced, and they gave us Pay to Win.


Why were they expecting play to win?   I didn’t see that anywhere in the advertised feature set. 

People were talking about a “fair competition”.

A competition for cumulative reaper Xp is not “fair” if two players play for 10 hours each but one has a purchased bonus of 50% xp and the other does not.   The player with the 50% bonus will likely win.

However, the same contest is also unfair if one player plays for 30 hours and the other plays for 10.  The player who plays for 30 hours will likely win. 

For the competition to be “fair” on a cumulative metric like reaper xp the play time would need to be the same and the spend would need to be the same. 

People saying “it’s ok for there to be imbalances in play time but not in spend” don’t want a “fair” competition.  They just want one that keeps their advantage while eliminating other players advantages. 

I personally think that:

1) the competitions were not the core focus of hardcore for the developer.  It was about the permadeath and the chance to play the game from nothing on a blank server.   Thus they didn’t intend for a completely “fair” competitive environment.   You could play 80+ hours per week if you want and spend $1000 or more if you want. 
2) if it is about the competitions then they need to use metrics that do not gain advantage from unlimited time or store spend.  Or put limits on both.  Or players need to accept that choosing how much time and/or money you spend on the competition is a part of the competition.
  
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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #59 - Dec 21st, 2019 at 10:30am
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Asheras wrote on Dec 21st, 2019 at 8:41am:
People saying “it’s ok for there to be imbalances in play time but not in spend” don’t want a “fair” competition. 

it is obviously more fair than having store up. every one gets the same 90 days....
  

Mockduck wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 2:20pm:
I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #60 - Dec 21st, 2019 at 1:42pm
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Technomage wrote on Dec 18th, 2019 at 11:21am:
That could actually be fun and, unlike HC, I might actually try it.


You two should blow each other in Macy's window.
  

Smrti wrote on Mar 22nd, 2013 at 3:00pm:
Gunga is the best.
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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #61 - Dec 21st, 2019 at 10:50pm
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Rubbinns wrote on Dec 21st, 2019 at 10:30am:
it is obviously more fair than having store up. every one gets the same 90 days....

It’s obvious to me that beyond a +8 tome (but really a +4 or 5 would do) a 10 stack of sov II cup pots and a 100 stack of mana and sov healing pots there isn’t much in the store that helps. 

Compare that to being able to invest 40-50 hours per week vs 15-20 and I’d say the extra time is worth way more advantage over the course of 90 days (13 weeks) than the $100-150 you might spend in cash on a character. 

People who think the option to spend twice as much time as another player is not unbalancing either aren’t being honest or aren’t very efficient with their game time.   

  
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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #62 - Dec 21st, 2019 at 11:18pm
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Asheras wrote on Dec 21st, 2019 at 10:50pm:
It’s obvious to me that beyond a +8 tome (but really a +4 or 5 would do) a 10 stack of sov II cup pots and a 100 stack of mana and sov healing pots there isn’t much in the store that helps. 

Compare that to being able to invest 40-50 hours per week vs 15-20 and I’d say the extra time is worth way more advantage over the course of 90 days (13 weeks) than the $100-150 you might spend in cash on a character. 

People who think the option to spend twice as much time as another player is not unbalancing either aren’t being honest or aren’t very efficient with their game time.   



Being able to spend more time on the game wouldn't make any difference for me. I'm going to die at least once before hitting level 20 whether I'm spending 5 hours a week on DDO or 50. And I know I wouldn't be able to hit 20 Reaper points on the Hardcore server ever... much less the bajillion RXP that the Hardcore winner did.

...but I also know that the HC winner wouldn't have been able to sit at the top of the leaderboards without those store items either, so I'm going to put an asterisk right next to his name just like I'd put an asterisk next to Mark McGwire's home run record.

And it's still "fair" because all those other baseball players had just as much access to steroids as Mark McGwire did.  He did hit all those home runs. That's something I couldn't do ever. He still has the record. It just has an asterisk next to it.
  
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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #63 - Dec 22nd, 2019 at 4:10pm
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Asheras wrote on Dec 21st, 2019 at 10:50pm:
It’s obvious to me that beyond a +8 tome (but really a +4 or 5 would do) a 10 stack of sov II cup pots and a 100 stack of mana and sov healing pots there isn’t much in the store that helps. 

So... All the dope items, then? Lesser hearts, augments, universal tree ap tome, racial tree ap tome, umd skill tome. Some various scrolls and potions that are harder to come by at the beginning of the league due to plat constraints. Less used but still handy items in feat swaps, and ap reset. Level crafting on the spot with all collectibles and essences + boosters and xp potions.

Though everyone was very fortunate that that guy ( sorry I forgot name ), who bought a ship and all buffs for public use provided that service.

90 days is still a cap and it is universal. Everyone gets 90 days from start. Store had no caps. 
« Last Edit: Dec 22nd, 2019 at 4:11pm by Rubbinns »  

Mockduck wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 2:20pm:
I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #64 - Dec 23rd, 2019 at 8:25am
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Asheras wrote on Dec 21st, 2019 at 8:41am:
Why were they expecting play to win?   I didn’t see that anywhere in the advertised feature set. 

LOL, you're right, of course. Nowhere did they advertise Play to Win, or Fair and Balanced, or anything like that. And even if they did, we'd have to consider the source and realize it wasn't going to be truth in advertising. Anyone with even a passing acquaintance with SSG knows that regardless of what they say, it's all about making whales stand still long enough to be milked. And for that, mission accomplished.

And the whales (and quite a few collateral non-whales, but who cares) enjoyed the experience, so it's a win all the way around. This is what we expect now from SSG, and this is what we got, yay.

The problem was entirely in the expectations of myself and others who saw them borrow phrasing that sounded similar to games like PoE and assumed it would be a similar quality experience. But SSG borrows the name D&D and the "roll a d20" mechanic, but abandons most of the finer points that keep D&D balanced, so why on earth would we expect them to be faithful to the standards set by PoE? There isn't even a licensing agreement to back it up.

It is what it is and I'm fine with it, just please don't tell me clouds are bright blue and the large wet drops falling from the sky are sunbeams so you can cheerfully proclaim it's a bright sunny day. Rain makes the crops grow and Pay to Win is how SSG keeps the lights on, accept it for what it is and be content.
  

Turdbin, keep changing the DDO rules, because McDonalds sold over 200 billion hamburgers by changing the recipe for their Special Sauce every couple of months to keep interest up.
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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #65 - Dec 23rd, 2019 at 11:16am
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Rubbinns wrote on Dec 22nd, 2019 at 4:10pm:
So... All the dope items, then? Lesser hearts, augments, universal tree ap tome, racial tree ap tome, umd skill tome. Some various scrolls and potions that are harder to come by at the beginning of the league due to plat constraints. Less used but still handy items in feat swaps, and ap reset. Level crafting on the spot with all collectibles and essences + boosters and xp potions.

Though everyone was very fortunate that that guy ( sorry I forgot name ), who bought a ship and all buffs for public use provided that service.

90 days is still a cap and it is universal. Everyone gets 90 days from start. Store had no caps. 


As a VIP player, like everyone else on the Hardcore server, I get 6000 points a year, as 500/month, included in my subscription.  Every VIP player could reasonably be expected have some points available. And of course a bunch of points for each 100 favour, and a bunch of points for first favour on a new server.  Using those points seems entirely reasonable.

My account already has all the packs and extra stuff unlocked.  So I get free racial/universal/experience/skill2/skill3 tomes - they are at this point in the game, free for me.  So is Elerie, and the various other hirelings.

  

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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #66 - Dec 23rd, 2019 at 12:40pm
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higgildypiggildy wrote on Dec 23rd, 2019 at 11:16am:
As a VIP player, like everyone else on the Hardcore server, I get 6000 points a year, as 500/month, included in my subscription.  Every VIP player could reasonably be expected have some points available. And of course a bunch of points for each 100 favour, and a bunch of points for first favour on a new server.  Using those points seems entirely reasonable.

My account already has all the packs and extra stuff unlocked.  So I get free racial/universal/experience/skill2/skill3 tomes - they are at this point in the game, free for me.  So is Elerie, and the various other hirelings.


Are you just typing now so you can read your own posts back to yourself and pretend it had to do with anything you replied to?
  

Mockduck wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 2:20pm:
I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #67 - Dec 23rd, 2019 at 2:09pm
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Meursault wrote on Dec 23rd, 2019 at 8:25am:
LOL, you're right, of course. Nowhere did they advertise Play to Win, or Fair and Balanced, or anything like that. And even if they did, we'd have to consider the source and realize it wasn't going to be truth in advertising. Anyone with even a passing acquaintance with SSG knows that regardless of what they say, it's all about making whales stand still long enough to be milked. And for that, mission accomplished.

And the whales (and quite a few collateral non-whales, but who cares) enjoyed the experience, so it's a win all the way around. This is what we expect now from SSG, and this is what we got, yay.

The problem was entirely in the expectations of myself and others who saw them borrow phrasing that sounded similar to games like PoE and assumed it would be a similar quality experience. But SSG borrows the name D&D and the "roll a d20" mechanic, but abandons most of the finer points that keep D&D balanced, so why on earth would we expect them to be faithful to the standards set by PoE? There isn't even a licensing agreement to back it up.

It is what it is and I'm fine with it, just please don't tell me clouds are bright blue and the large wet drops falling from the sky are sunbeams so you can cheerfully proclaim it's a bright sunny day. Rain makes the crops grow and Pay to Win is how SSG keeps the lights on, accept it for what it is and be content.

Sounds like we agree.

I think players need to realize that the competitions are, as currently designed, going to skew towards people spending both a lot of money and a lot of time in game to win competitions.   Players who want a completely level playing field are probably not the target audience.  Because SSG wants players spending both a lot of time in game and spending a lot of money on the game. 

You can pejoratively call heavy money spenders "whales" and pejoratively call heavy time spenders "no-lifers" but that doesn't alter the fact that the progression and reward systems have been targeted at this group of players for years.   And, more accurately, at the intersection of the two in the Venn Diagram.

For example in Hard Core, it turns out the winner was someone with a willingness to spend AND a willingness to dedicate a full time job's worth of hours per week.   Not surprising at all.  That maximizes both advantages to the fullest.   Skill is still required, but skill over too few hours doesn't get the same result.  Nor will skill without the results magnifiers of store items yield the same result.

Both the "whales" and the "no-lifers" benefit from these kinds of competitions and SSG benefits from their activity.   Some people only care about the "whale" advantages.   Some only care about the "no-lifer" advantages.   Personally, I care about both.  However, as I said, I get that I'm not the target audience for these competitions.  Until the competitions limit both money and time as advantages, then I'm just there for the fun of hard core and the thrill of the game as a challenge again.    

I personally think the game would be better if the store did not sell progression items and monetization was based on content, cosmetics, and QoL.  At the same time, cap the grind on a per character basis and limit single character progression over time.   That will reduce the need for progression bypasses, lower the power gaps, and increase alt play.   Then make competitions based on skill, not money spend or time spend.  That would make the game more accessible to a larger player base, including new and returning players.  I know some folks think these ships have sailed, and that's fine.
  
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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #68 - Dec 23rd, 2019 at 3:24pm
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Asheras wrote on Dec 23rd, 2019 at 2:09pm:
I personally think the game would be better if the store did not sell progression items and monetization was based on content, cosmetics, and QoL.  At the same time, cap the grind on a per character basis and limit single character progression over time.   That will reduce the need for progression bypasses, lower the power gaps, and increase alt play.   Then make competitions based on skill, not money spend or time spend.  That would make the game more accessible to a larger player base, including new and returning players.  I know some folks think these ships have sailed, and that's fine.   

^Yeah, totally this.

I love the basic approach of DDO and it would be my favorite, nearly to the point of only, ongoing game if they did this. I don't think the ship has sailed, I'd be back in a heartbeat if they changed and I'd bring friends. I'm sure others would too.

Hardcore offered a far less uneven playing field, and grouping exploded. Extrapolate that to live servers with less of a power gap and dream about how big DDO could be.
  

Turdbin, keep changing the DDO rules, because McDonalds sold over 200 billion hamburgers by changing the recipe for their Special Sauce every couple of months to keep interest up.
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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #69 - Dec 28th, 2019 at 1:23am
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Asheras wrote on Dec 23rd, 2019 at 2:09pm:
I personally think the game would be better if the store did not sell progression items and monetization was based on content, cosmetics, and QoL.  At the same time, cap the grind on a per character basis and limit single character progression over time.   That will reduce the need for progression bypasses, lower the power gaps, and increase alt play.   Then make competitions based on skill, not money spend or time spend.  That would make the game more accessible to a larger player base, including new and returning players.  I know some folks think these ships have sailed, and that's fine.   


Meh. People with better computers and higher internet speeds win. Smarter people figure out maps and mechanics better. Better players have quicker response time. Leveling the playing field sounds pretty boring to me.

Guess what: people with expendable income, time, smarts, reflexes and a six-pack of energy drinks win.
  

Smrti wrote on Mar 22nd, 2013 at 3:00pm:
Gunga is the best.
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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #70 - Dec 28th, 2019 at 1:20pm
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So much of this stupid thread has been about if you pay money to give you an advantage it's pay to win.

Some have tried to say nuh ah, they of course were wrong.

Now we a bunch of captain obvious statements. Statements like:

Extra time helps you win.

No fucking shit. There was never an argument about this, yet people keep saying obvious shit like this as if it's some profound epiphany. Heads up, it's not.
  

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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #71 - Dec 29th, 2019 at 11:25am
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I'll submit it was all luck.   No skilled players died a legitimate death on the Hardcore server... was always due to some fluke, i.e. a bugged champion hitting for 3 times what it should, or lazieness or boredom.   

The winners were all just lucky and persistent.   No skill involved.
  
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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #72 - Dec 29th, 2019 at 5:24pm
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Daggertooth wrote on Dec 29th, 2019 at 11:25am:
I'll submit it was all luck.   No skilled players died a legitimate death on the Hardcore server... was always due to some fluke, i.e. a bugged champion hitting for 3 times what it should, or lazieness or boredom.   

The winners were all just lucky and persistent.   No skill involved.


This, no matter how good and how many pls you have.

This game turned into a lottery.
  

Dear players,

The D&D rules you were familiar with were too simple to understand, so we're continuing our move away from them to needlessly confusing subsystems that will make your play experience less fun and invalidate old builds and loot. We hope you have fun working out what the fuck MRR, PRR, MP, SP, RP, CL, MCL and all the other bullshit we made up whilst drunk means.

Love,

People who don't know how to fix their own mistakes cleanly
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higgildypiggildy
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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #73 - Dec 30th, 2019 at 8:04am
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It was a mixture of many elements that determined the winner not just one

  • Skill (there is plenty of skill involved in playing DDO on reaper with 1st life characters)
  • Money (to get several good boosts to power up your character)
  • Time (lots of playtime means more time to do quests to get more XP)
  • Luck (or rather being not-unlucky with lag spikes)
« Last Edit: Dec 30th, 2019 at 8:05am by higgildypiggildy »  

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Groo The Wanderer
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Re: Hardcore eyeroll
Reply #74 - Jan 26th, 2020 at 12:31pm
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Just on the whole "pay to win" aspect.

What was "won" for the payment?   I was able to get all the same rewards and spent the points I had earned on the way there.   Basically paid $0 and got all the same rewards, granted it took me longer to get there as I wasn't chugging the 50% pots I did get there.

From what I can see the cash was spent to "win" a higher rank on the tree.  Fuck you want to consider that winning more power too ya.  I'm sure it helps compensate for the lack of dick and balls between yer legs and why not little Johnny you deserve to feel like a real man once in a while?

Sheesh ... seriously it's funny crying about pay to win on the HC server.  I fucking hope there's  1000 guys willing to drop $500 to try and get to the top of a list of names that nobody fucking cares about.  Helps keep the lights on after all.

  

where's the cheese dip?

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