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Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? (Read 8734 times)

Oracler Titan Demolisher Offline Sploits! omnomnom.. Posts: 388 Joined: Mar 17^th, 2014	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #25 - Jan 20^th, 2020 at 6:49pm	Print Post
	Try Halfling alchemist 18 (vile chemist) / arti 2 (cannon) vistani thrower, dex based with that new feat - it's getting really close to shuri and may overcome with few more tweaks. [But now monk/alchemist splash shuri may get even better, didn't tested on lama thou] Rog 5 is not worth the Mechanic tree for that 10% throwers alacrity. Monk just for 10k stars also - not really.

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Carpone Puppy Farmer Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 1695 Joined: Jul 2^nd, 2011 Gender:	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #26 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 9:43am	Print Post
	Oracler wrote on Jan 20^th, 2020 at 6:49pm: Try Halfling alchemist 18 (vile chemist) / arti 2 (cannon) vistani thrower, dex based with that new feat - it's getting really close to shuri and may overcome with few more tweaks. Did a bunch of mathing around throwing dagger builds since preview1 was too borked. Splashing 2 arti for runearm damage is a huge DPS loss: 6d10 vs 8d12 which is 190 less poison dmg per hit with 900 poison spellpower. On 20 Alch: DEX is 6% doubleshot less than INT (loss of festive aug and INT capstone).� You're also losing 14 dmg per hit from KtA on DEX. So DEX is lower DPS than INT, and you're restricted to Halfling.� Morninglord provides the highest (and not insignificant) damage gain due to the 6% hit. Edit: removed comments about Shuri since I haven't played one since the Great Fingersnap of 2018.
	« Last Edit: Jan 21^st, 2020 at 3:22pm by Carpone »

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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #27 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 11:02am	Print Post
	Umm, 3 monk gives enemies 100% poison vulnerability.

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NOTpopejubal Epic Poster Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 4096 Location: Let go or get dragged. Joined: Apr 17^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #28 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 11:18am	Print Post
	5 Foot Step wrote on Jan 21^st, 2020 at 11:02am: Umm, 3 monk gives enemies 100% poison vulnerability. 4 Alchemist also gives enemies 100% poison vulnerability.


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Teth Dragon Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 250 Joined: Jan 31^st, 2014	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #29 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 12:35pm	Print Post
	Its gonna be hard for pure alchem to surpass a zombie splash.


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WonderfulFoppyBint Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline Poooop Posts: 5977 Location: stockholm victim of hag master Joined: Oct 23^rd, 2013	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #30 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 2:04pm	Print Post
	So they made a tree with all the broken stuff from shurikens and then added dice. rofl
	« Last Edit: Jan 21^st, 2020 at 2:04pm by WonderfulFoppyBint »
	OUR GOD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1l7N-WLa3Q Right of Self-determination: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bqQ-C1PSE volt_ wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2017 at 4:43pm: Be a container for your genes to control your behavior in order to reproduce
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Teth Dragon Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 250 Joined: Jan 31^st, 2014	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #31 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 2:11pm	Print Post
	WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Jan 21^st, 2020 at 2:04pm: So they made a tree with all the broken stuff from shurikens and then added dice. rofl Nothing in chemist makes dagger throwers better than shuri users. It�s visanti in combination with the 2 new feats. That alone trumps shuri thrower. Alchem is just tweaked dps with niche effects.


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Carpone Puppy Farmer Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 1695 Joined: Jul 2^nd, 2011 Gender:	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #32 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 2:52pm	Print Post
	Teth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2020 at 12:35pm: Its gonna be hard for pure alchem to surpass a zombie splash. Zombie does -6 dmg per hit in Fatesinger compared to 20 Alch accounting for 4% dshot less for zombie (loss of capstone).� That factors in Dust + Shattered Device 4pc (but not poison vulnerability).� I haven't run the numbers for Shadowdancer or other EDs yet for zombie. Zombie assumes no rate of fire reduction compared to non-zombie, which may be reality because of the low ranged attack speed cap.� ROF testing between 65% attack speed and 80% attack speed had no noticable difference.� 65 * .80 = 52% ranged attack speed, which I'm fairly confident had no noticable difference as well.� Considering we saw zombie adjustments fairly quickly with Inquis around the same feature, I wouldn't be surprised to see the same adjustment applied to throwers.
	« Last Edit: Jan 21^st, 2020 at 3:10pm by Carpone »

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WonderfulFoppyBint Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline Poooop Posts: 5977 Location: stockholm victim of hag master Joined: Oct 23^rd, 2013	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #33 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 3:06pm	Print Post
	Quote: Nothing in chemist makes dagger throwers better than shuri users Did we miss the poison scaling? The crit range + multi? The free full BAB? The thrower tree (deepwood) has headshot/legshot/sniper shot and some misc scaling. Not a particularly good tree imo. On second glance though, knife chuckers are missing the feat for an extra proj. I don't know if the multi, better int scaling, and poison can beat that.
	« Last Edit: Jan 21^st, 2020 at 3:37pm by WonderfulFoppyBint »
	OUR GOD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1l7N-WLa3Q Right of Self-determination: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bqQ-C1PSE volt_ wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2017 at 4:43pm: Be a container for your genes to control your behavior in order to reproduce
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WonderfulFoppyBint Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline Poooop Posts: 5977 Location: stockholm victim of hag master Joined: Oct 23^rd, 2013	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #34 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 3:38pm	Print Post
	Carpone wrote on Jan 21^st, 2020 at 2:52pm: Zombie does -6 dmg per hit in Fatesinger compared to 20 Alch accounting for 4% dshot less for zombie (loss of capstone).� That factors in Dust + Shattered Device 4pc (but not poison vulnerability).� I haven't run the numbers for Shadowdancer or other EDs yet for zombie.� Zombie assumes no rate of fire reduction compared to non-zombie, which may be reality because of the low ranged attack speed cap.� ROF testing between 65% attack speed and 80% attack speed had no noticable difference.� 65 * .80 = 52% ranged attack speed, which I'm fairly confident had no noticable difference as well.� Considering we saw zombie adjustments fairly quickly with Inquis around the same feature, I wouldn't be surprised to see the same adjustment applied to throwers. I believe throwers hit the old alacrity cap much faster. Zombies shouldn't have any increase over someone using tensers/whirling wrists

	OUR GOD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1l7N-WLa3Q Right of Self-determination: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bqQ-C1PSE volt_ wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2017 at 4:43pm: Be a container for your genes to control your behavior in order to reproduce
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Rubbinns The Undeserving Fuckwit Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 10460 Joined: Sep 4^th, 2013	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #35 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 4:30pm	Print Post
	WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Jan 21^st, 2020 at 3:38pm: I believe throwers hit the old alacrity cap much faster. Zombies shouldn't have any increase over someone using tensers/whirling wrists Rates of fire tested seemed to stay the same at 26% ranged alacrity all the way up to 111%. The reload animation is what devs should focus on if they wished to increase the alacrity. In before VKF nerfs and we get assassins in the crossfire. because, clearly, melees needed more nerfs or proxy nerfs by way of stupidly high ranged damage

	Mockduck wrote on Aug 30^th, 2010 at 2:20pm: I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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NOTpopejubal Epic Poster Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 4096 Location: Let go or get dragged. Joined: Apr 17^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #36 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 4:37pm	Print Post
	Rubbinns wrote on Jan 21^st, 2020 at 4:30pm: Rates of fire tested seemed to stay the same at 26% ranged alacrity all the way up to 111%. The reload animation is what devs should focus on if they wished to increase the alacrity. In before VKF nerfs and we get assassins in the crossfire. because, clearly, melees needed more nerfs or proxy nerfs by way of stupidly high ranged damage Since I haven't made a thrower myself previously (I made one and then abandonded it because it sucked) - does that mean that any ranged alacrity above 26% is ignored? So just get 26% from gear/enhancements/whatever and then don't bother getting more?


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Teth Dragon Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 250 Joined: Jan 31^st, 2014	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #37 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 5:58pm	Print Post
	WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Jan 21^st, 2020 at 3:06pm: Did we miss the poison scaling? The crit range + multi? The free full BAB? The thrower tree (deepwood) has headshot/legshot/sniper shot and some misc scaling. Not a particularly good tree imo. On second glance though, knife chuckers are missing the feat for an extra proj. I don't know if the multi, better int scaling, and poison can beat that. Visanti already has crit range and multi, the new feat offers doubleshot = to dex, full base attack can be tensered, zombie rogue offers 20% bump to base and sneak dmg, rogue offers sneak dmg.


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Technomage Epic Poster Offline And so it begins... Posts: 4444 Location: Tucson, AZ Joined: Aug 27^th, 2015 Gender:	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #38 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 6:18pm	Print Post
	Is there any way to offset the Zombie 20% penalty to attack speed and get it up to where it should be?

	Do not try the patience of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger. We are dreamers, shapers, singers, and makers. We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, crystal and scanner, holographic demons and invocation of equations. These are the tools we employ, and we know many things. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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Rubbinns The Undeserving Fuckwit Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 10460 Joined: Sep 4^th, 2013	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #39 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 6:23pm	Print Post
	NOTpopejubal wrote on Jan 21^st, 2020 at 4:37pm: Since I haven't made a thrower myself previously (I made one and then abandonded it because it sucked) - does that mean that any ranged alacrity above 26% is ignored? So just get 26% from gear/enhancements/whatever and then don't bother getting more? Looked to be the case when I tested dagger alacrity on last Lam. I will do more thorough testing on the next preview. Want to try with 0 dshot value, auto attacking, on stack of 100 daggers across 1 minute.

	Mockduck wrote on Aug 30^th, 2010 at 2:20pm: I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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WonderfulFoppyBint Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline Poooop Posts: 5977 Location: stockholm victim of hag master Joined: Oct 23^rd, 2013	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #40 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 7:23pm	Print Post
	Teth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2020 at 5:58pm: Visanti already has crit range and multi, the new feat offers doubleshot = to dex, full base attack can be tensered, zombie rogue offers 20% bump to base and sneak dmg, rogue offers sneak dmg. zombie no bueno people who tensers religiously are silly

	OUR GOD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1l7N-WLa3Q Right of Self-determination: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bqQ-C1PSE volt_ wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2017 at 4:43pm: Be a container for your genes to control your behavior in order to reproduce
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Carpone Puppy Farmer Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 1695 Joined: Jul 2^nd, 2011 Gender:	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #41 - Jan 22^nd, 2020 at 8:05am	Print Post
	NOTpopejubal wrote on Jan 21^st, 2020 at 4:37pm: Since I haven't made a thrower myself previously (I made one and then abandonded it because it sucked) - does that mean that any ranged alacrity above 26% is ignored? So just get 26% from gear/enhancements/whatever and then don't bother getting more? Whirling Wrists is 60% and it's a no brainer to twist just for the 6% doubleshot.� You also get 5% from Vistani Knife Juggler as well.� So there's no need to stack additional sources.


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Technomage Epic Poster Offline And so it begins... Posts: 4444 Location: Tucson, AZ Joined: Aug 27^th, 2015 Gender:	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #42 - Jan 22^nd, 2020 at 11:48am	Print Post
	Carpone wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2020 at 8:05am: Whirling Wrists is 60% and it's a no brainer to twist just for the 6% doubleshot. Will that +60% from Whirling Wrists make up for the -20% from Zombie and then will the +40% that's leftover push dagger throwing speed up to the max of +26% alluded to by Rubbinns above?
	« Last Edit: Jan 22^nd, 2020 at 11:51am by Technomage »
	Do not try the patience of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger. We are dreamers, shapers, singers, and makers. We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, crystal and scanner, holographic demons and invocation of equations. These are the tools we employ, and we know many things. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #43 - Jan 22^nd, 2020 at 1:30pm	Print Post
	Do Alch throwing enhancements apply to sun flasks, bottled fireballs, bottled tornados, etc?

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Teth Dragon Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 250 Joined: Jan 31^st, 2014	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #44 - Jan 22^nd, 2020 at 5:09pm	Print Post
	Technomage wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2020 at 11:48am: Will that +60% from Whirling Wrists make up for the -20% from Zombie and then will the +40% that's leftover push dagger throwing speed up to the max of +26% alluded to by Rubbinns above? Yes, which is why zombie will need to be changed again


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Technomage Epic Poster Offline And so it begins... Posts: 4444 Location: Tucson, AZ Joined: Aug 27^th, 2015 Gender:	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #45 - Jan 23^rd, 2020 at 12:03pm	Print Post
	Teth wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2020 at 5:09pm: Yes, which is why zombie will need to be changed again Yep. An almost free +20% damage is bound to be a big nerf target. Thanks.

	Do not try the patience of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger. We are dreamers, shapers, singers, and makers. We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, crystal and scanner, holographic demons and invocation of equations. These are the tools we employ, and we know many things. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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Dark_Helmet Wielder of the Schwartz Offline I hate you! Posts: 1176 Joined: Feb 14^th, 2010	Re: Viability of a NON-shuriken throwing build? Reply #46 - Jan 24^th, 2020 at 12:13am	Print Post
	Technomage wrote on Jan 14^th, 2020 at 11:17am: You pointed this out at least once before. I read it and I ignored it. Why? Because thrown weapons were never a "thing" for most AD&D players. It wasn't until 2nd Edition came out that the real yoinking (optimization) started. If your group was doing that in AD&D, then good for you. Then you weren't a DM at conventions back in the 80s. That was the first min/max build. Fighters asked me (can I trade my daggers in for darts) at every convention I ran a table in. And it wasn't just the College Polycon level but Origins and Strategicon. I guess you didn't have to deal with the "bag of rats" in 3rd edition either? D&D noob!


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